Um, TheWatcher, when did I ever say that was the case? Please be specific and post some quotes of mine that validate that. Even though I'm positive you can't.

Rakim could be 13 years old, doesn't change the fact that he is irrelevant in today's hip hop circles.

What I drew from that (shockingly?) is that old rappers = irrelevant because they're old.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that hip hop, especially rap, is about the here and now... the new and the fresh. That is the nature of the genre. That is why "old" rappers are kicked to the curb so easily. It has nothing to do with their AGE, necessarily, but more of what they bring to the table. When Rakim was a young buck he was relevant because he was NEW and he was FRESH. If Rakim would've dropped Paid In Full at the age of 35 it wouldn't of made any difference. That's the point. It has more to do with the here and now rather than simply age factor. Because KRS-One is relevant and he is damn near the same age as Rakim.

who is todays hip hop circles? i like rakim and last time i checked i'm alive today and listen to hip hop

In the time I've posted here I haven't seen you mention Rakim even once before this thread.

Did you buy Rakim's latest album? Can you post a flick of it?

As long as hip hop is relevant, Rakim will be relevant, possibly even beyond hip hop's relevance, but probably not. 2pac is relevant in a different way. Much like Bob Marley is still relevant even though nobody cares about reggae anymore except for a select few people, 2pac will be relevant long after hip hop has faded of into obscurity. Rakim made hip hop relevant. 2pac gained relevance through the medium of hip hop. That's the difference. Rakim doesn't need to continue to be hailed by fans as the greatest emcee of all time to be relevant. The influence he's had on everyone in the game, whether direct or indirect, seals his relevance in stone as long as hip hop remains relevant. Also, as soon as the emceeing aspect of hip hop has an impact on the music of the future, hip hop will remain relevant and so will Rakim based on influence. 2pac can lose his relevance even if hip hop doesn't fade into obscurity and while he has a huge following, even to this day, the influence he has had on other peoples' styles isn't touching the influence Rakim has had. They are both highly relevant in different ways. The difference is that Rakim doesn't need to maintain a huge fan base to be relevant. Pac needs to at least maintain a decent following to remain relevant (and I see it as highly likely that he will maintain a following for quite some time). Here's a good example of why I consider Rakim relevant to this day. When Duke Ellington came out he was a lot like Rakim: his style is more influential on Jazz than almost anyone, but he was never one of the top selling artists (that title at the time of the Duke's peak popularity more likely being Cab Calloway). Somewhere between 1940 and 1980 the Duke faded into near oblivion, however, was highly influential still on almost every other artist in Jazz. He finally regained popularity in the 80's when Wynton Marsalis brought a new relevance to his music, but would you consider Duke Ellington not relevant the whole while that he had become an obscure figure that was no longer popular? I wouldn't. I'd say he remained as relevant the whole time because of his influence. An even better example would be Leadbelly. Would you consider Leadbelly irrelevant? He's more influential on music in general than most anyone I've ever heard, but many people here have probably never even heard of him. Does that make him irrelevant? As for sales being a mark for relevance, Jimi Hendrix never sold well in the US, or for an even better example, John Coltrane never sold well period. Were neither of them ever relevant?

I never said it entitles them to eat off that person. It simply makes them continuously relevant. As for the Pac thing, ask anyone who has been a hip hop head since before Pac entered the game or anyone that was listening to underground hip hop congruent with Pac's popularity. He was widely considered fake. It wasn't until he died that he became a legend and sealed his place in hip hop as more than just a fad or a cat that was popular at that time. That is not to say that people wouldn't have realized that he truly deserves his place in hip hop history after a while even if he was still alive today. However, like I said, at that time he was the popular artist that people often talked shit about like people talk shit about Lil Wayne today.

my new theme song



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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

Reggae is one of the most popular genres of music in modern times, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Nope, not true. Hip hop was relevant long before Rakim stepped on the scene. He may of made a certain style of rapping relevant, but he himself did not "make" hip hop relevant. Not true by any means.

I guess that's where you and I differ. You believe that because someone contributed to the construction of modern day rap, they will always be relevant in terms of modern day emcees. Let's not forget what this topic of discussion is about -- ageism in hip hop. No one is trying to discredit Rakim, we all know his contributions to the game, but creating a form of rapping will not seal your relevance in terms of "who is hot" and "who is not" in today's rap circles. It doesn't work that way. And that is reflected in his latest album going double plastic.

Your argument is slowly slipping away from you. First, you claim that people accused Pac of being fake when he came onto the scene. Who are the mysterious people you speak of? Where are their battle raps? Where are their disses aimed at Pac? Where are their interviews? Because as far as I know, Pac had the entire industry shook for his entire reign. Even his biggest nemesis refused to address him by name.

And as for the above quote, Pac gained legend status well before his death. I'd say mid to late 1995. He was a movie star, he was a rap star, and he was also a convicted felon. He was what every rapper aspired to be. You happy go lucky dudes seem to forget how much pull 2Pac had in the 90's. The rap game was his and his alone. Numbers don't lie.

OK Menace, prove it. Don't run from another one of my posts directed at you. Stand up and prove that these artists had a problem with Pac. And don't produce quotes from 2002. I want direct evidence during Pac's lifetime that insinuates that these herbs had a problem with Makaveli. Simply put, I don't believe you.

Here is what I know about rappers that have said something about Pac DURING his lifetime..

The Fugees, Wendy Williams, and LL Cool J have all taken shots at 2Pac off wax. Radio interviews. News print columns, and the like. I'm sure there are a couple more but these artists come to mind first. Pac went back at each of them on wax, "When We Ride On Our Enemies" directed at Fugees, "Why U Turn On Me" directed at Wendy Williams, and "Lil Homies" directed at LL Cool J.

Chino XL, NaS, and DMX were the only rappers I know of who dissed 2Pac BY NAME on wax. I understand that disses from other rappers were blatant and obviously directed at Pac, but they were obviously too shook to say the man's name, so I don't count those as "official" disses towards 2Pac. They do count, but I don't consider them "official" disses. It's only official in my book when you say the man's name you have a problem with. Otherwise it seems like you're yellow.

So all this bullshit with Freestyle Fellowship and their candy cane rhymes and the Good Vibes Cafe or whatever you want to call it.. I don't believe any of that nonsense. One, because most of those cats would've been eaten alive on wax by Pac and Death Row, and two, who in their right mind would diss the money maker of Death Row Records, headed by Suge Knight, KNOWING damn well they live in the same city of Los Angeles. Freestyle Fellowship don't have the man power to stop MOB Pirus from kicking in their front door. Everyone knows how Death Row handled business in those days. On and off wax. Good Vibes nerd cafe didn't want none of that drama LOL. Who would, honestly.

there are some good songs and some bad songs, the good songs are definitely worth buying, but i skipped the bad songs, and the bad songs were only bad because of the beat and the chorus not coz of Rakim.

I suppose I should start hating him too then?