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Forum » Knowledge » Politics/Economics » How the market can keep streams flowing... (another example of tragedy of the commons)
How the market can keep streams flowing...
J-Breakz Date: Monday, 21/Mar/11, 9:02 PM | Message # 16

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Quote (menace)
exactly this has nothing to do with capitalism

God you're a dumb ass. You were trying to use a business model to challenge an economic system. It just doesn't make sense.

Quote (menace)
Your whole idea is debunked by these cooperatives, because these cooperatives are not privately owned nor they are private property, they are collectively owned by their workers, hence they are collective property.

Did you even read my post?

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...Because you need private property to be able to figure out proper prices that will efficiently allocate natural resources and raw materials.

The reason they're able to properly price their items is because of the companies that supply the coops with raw materials find out their pricing thru private property, and also competitors that run under a standard business model use private property. That's why your examples point to your dumbassness, because you can say they're not using the idea of private property, but a bunch of private property using idea type companies are strung thru those coops.

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Free market anti capitalism also called Mutualism, works and always worked, check these links http://www.mutualist.org/ , http://mutualist.blogspot.com/ . Check those links and stop being so dogmatic and close minded.

Actually mutualism doesn't work because it's based on the ltv. I'm not being close-minded, I just enjoy shooting down irrelevant arguments out of boredom.


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J-Breakz Date: Monday, 21/Mar/11, 9:02 PM | Message # 17

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Quote (eboyd)
Money would actually be created upon the labor of an individual and deleted (wiped out of existence) upon use.

If people decide to save their money, and more is being created through labor... that would just heavily inflate your economy. Basically the difference between your thing and regular free market trade is that the producer is getting paid before the product is purchased. Think about it.

In a free-market system, a man makes a mouse and in order to make the 5 dollar asking price he has to sell it to a consumer. This makes sense because it's balance. It took him 5 dollars worth of resources to make that mouse, and he needs a person willing to trade him 5 dollars in order for there to not be waste.

In your system, a man makes a mouse and gets 5 dollars before he's even sold it. We're still not completely sure if there is a person willing to buy that. If there isn't, then 5 dollars in inflation was created out of something that was completely unproductive. In theory you might be able to make this work, but in real life it's incredibly difficult to predict a market's future. That's why the stock exchange is so risky, demand can fluctuate drastically and quickly.

A surplus would be devastating because not only would there have been too many mouses made, but people will get a bunch of money for the products when they haven't been sold or "surrendered" to consumers (however u wanna say it). It's like you might as well pay them for picking their ass because we're wasting scarce resources.

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There is no actual trade being made.

There's always gonna be a trade, because in order to get something you have to give something. Nothings free...

Quote (eboyd)
The collective isn't actually selling the products because a sale involves an actual exchange of money... No money is transferred but the product literally belongs to no one

The collective is just being the middleman here in the trade. You can logically break down any school of economic theory and your just gonna end up with bartering. You should start thinking this way in order to find holes in your lib-soc idea.

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No, because there is no cost of production. The collective does not have to pay a dime for someone to produce. When they produce, they literally create currency. When that currency comes into existence, the only thing it effects is the prices of products in that economy. It does not cost any money to the collective or anyone else for that matter.

There is no such thing as free anything. Of course there's a cost of production. There's the cost of raw materials, and (still) a cost of labor. When that man made a mouse and created 5 credits for himself, then sacrificed those 5 credits for something.... that something would be the cost of production... get it? The scary thing tho is that if no one wants to buy that mouse then the whole market (aka everybody) had to pay for the cost of production.

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you insinuated that supply and demand = the cost of production

no i didn't

Quote (eboyd)
It may be difficult, but is it any different than what businesses already do?

yes, really different

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What makes, say, a CEO (or any other businessman) more qualified to try to predict demand than anyone else?

Because that's straight up barter. A CEO is aware of the cost of production and the public decides how desirable the product is, then there is eventually a middle ground. There is always going to be surpluses and shortages to deal with. and going back, that wouldn't work out for you....

Quote (j-breakz)
A surplus would be devastating because not only would there have been too many mouses made, but people will get a bunch of money for the products when they haven't been sold or "surrendered" to consumers (however u wanna say it). It's like you might as well pay them for picking their ass.

Quote (eboyd)
And while determining demand may be ultimately subjective, it is based on things that are objective, such as past consumption and historical trends.

preference is completely random. You never know when one week I will want to live off of chocolate, and the next it's just and only fruit. But yeah, you can make guesses from market research but there have been plenty of companies who've been wrong.

Quote (eboyd)
Prices don't just magically determine themselves on a market. Someone still has to determine them

It's the haggling between the buyers and the sellers.

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I am simply taking price determination out of the hands of the few and placing it in the hands of a much larger, more directly affected group.

Oh man, I love this right here.... What I'm about to say goes back to being completely relevant to the video lol What you're doing doesn't work. Because the first things you would have to price are important resources, for example, water. People would have little incentive to conserve it, because the more that is used the more you can produce any widget, drink, wash with. With a free market system, someone would own a part of a stream (just a completely random example), that property would have a certain value. The more water that he would lose, the less valuable the property would become. There is a strong incentive to conserve water as to not waste it, something that every example of common water supplies sucked at.

heres the video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwdoyXBAAPw

Quote (eboyd)
Also, past consumption, product trends, etc., would be factored in to predict future demand.

lol, you're holding a meeting with scientists telling people the amount of every product they are going to buy in the future. That would actually be pretty entertaining and cool.

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They may fluctuate, but the point of economics is to allocate scarce resources, and the best possible way to do that is by supply and demand, and the best way to determine them is careful observation of past supply and demand levels and factors that may change them, not leaving it up to tyrants to make that determination based on their own personal values.

If they fluctuate, your economy is destroyed because of surpluses and shortages. The best way is to actually let the people decide how much of whatever it is they want. A big problem you don't understand is the issue of preference. And stv doesn't have anything to do with tyrants, if it's an unreasonable price then people just won't buy it. Then a competitor will lower their price to an acceptable amount.

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Proof only exists in mathematics. It may be evidence, but it is not proof. That said, I still don't have the internet and so I can't watch it now. If you find it posted on YouTube you can post a link for that and I will be able to see it though.

Everything is mathematics foo

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common property and personal property.

Yeah personal property is private property...


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J-Breakz Date: Monday, 21/Mar/11, 9:07 PM | Message # 18

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i fucking love my avatar, i accidently posted before i finished, so the post above isn't complete

it has been completed

[edit]

Quote (menace)
Owned by the Communist Party, the Soviet Union was actually called TOTALITARIAN for a reason, TOTALITARIAN a word J breakz doesn't know, was called like that because the people of the soviet union had no say in neither governing nor economic development. So J breakz, democracy and TOTALITARIANISM are different things, maybe there in America they teach you something else but democracy comes from the Greek language , demos means "people" and cratos means "power", democracy " peoples power", say it with me DEMOCRACY LOL :D
. The Soviet Union had no DEMOCRACY had no DEMOS nor CRATOS, it was a totalitarian state where a vanguard party, usually the party of Lenin ruled the DEMOS, this concept comes from Lenin's idea that the people are too dumb to RULE THEMSELVES to achieve true DEMOCRACY, they need to be lead to democracy and socialism by the Marxist intelligentsia, its called vanguardism. Ok ? :D Its ridiculous man, what me and Erik are promoting trough different perspectives sometimes is the same thing, its called DIRECT DEMOCRACY, i don't know how can you equate economic democracy with the Soviet Union, dude i live in ROMANIA a former "communist" country LOL :D people had no say in nothing here, in nothing at all, everything was done by a handful of people, usually the bureaucracy of the communist party. What does economic democracy has do with it? economic democracy represents the basis of those cooperatives i presented to you on economic democracy they work, mentioning the Soviet Union is ridiculous, are you Glen Beck ? :D

thats exactly what i mean when i talk to ppl about dumbasses. I meant in terms of figuring out supply and demand. how their collectives were ran has no point to wat im sayin, they still needed food and clothing. In your meetings, basically the prices are going to be set by those scientists. Who else would have the time to do all that math with all sorts of different stuff when they're so busy doing basic labor? The USSR did the same exact thing. They had scientists tryn to decide prices and it failed obviously.


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J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 26/Mar/11, 2:43 PM | Message # 19

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is this debate over now?

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J-Breakz Date: Monday, 04/Apr/11, 9:08 AM | Message # 20

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Dawg I think the only reason menace calls himself a revolutionist is cuz he thinks that sounds good wen he's tryin to spit game to females.

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Adam Date: Monday, 04/Apr/11, 9:17 AM | Message # 21

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probably.




I JUST EXPLODED INTO RAINBOWS AND LOLLIPOPS!
J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 06/Apr/11, 10:25 PM | Message # 22

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CHARLIE SHEEN ON THESE HOES

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J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 09/Apr/11, 12:08 PM | Message # 23

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come on. hurry up and reply a counter argument. it should only take u like 5 minutes.

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ilikebacon3000 Date: Saturday, 09/Apr/11, 12:48 PM | Message # 24

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i think j-breakz is bi winning right now.

Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
Treach Date: Saturday, 09/Apr/11, 1:16 PM | Message # 25

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he's half bi-winning half bi-polar

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Now you gotta have some sex appeal to get a record deal"
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J-Breakz Date: Sunday, 10/Apr/11, 11:50 AM | Message # 26

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Psh, I'm purely bi winning biatch. I just got a job yesterday, got a dubb of that cali kush, and met king sun in the studio. That niqqas loud runnin around telling everybody he's a celebrity lmao.

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ilikebacon3000 Date: Sunday, 10/Apr/11, 12:17 PM | Message # 27

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Lol where are you working? McDonald's?

Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
J-Breakz Date: Sunday, 10/Apr/11, 12:28 PM | Message # 28

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I'm a food runner at a restaurant

cuntface


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eboyd Date: Sunday, 10/Apr/11, 4:48 PM | Message # 29

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ok, so i finally got a chance to watch the video and i don't get how that has anything to do with tragedy of the commons. the video discusses people who hold private property in streams who are incentivized by laws to consume more water than they actually need and deincentivized to conserve, and a solution that companies with a water footprint have been using to give the private property holders incentive to conserve. sure, it briefly and indirectly discussed the early settlers who used the creek being skeptical of others using the creek, and the slideshow had a picture of multiple people taking water and the levels being depleted, but he never actually stated that common use of the creek was causing a conservation problem. he also mentioned methods that property holders have since been using to conserve water. who is to say that a group couldn't commonly choose to use that method?

btw, it isn't individuals using common property that depletes and degrades supplies of products and/or raw materials. it is the people who band together in large groups, such as corporations, to take massive amounts of those materials, much of the time far exceeding actual consumption levels, and doing as they please with them. if i as an individual go to extract water from a local stream (no matter the equipment i have, because regardless i have to operate it all by myself, or maybe with a few others' help), is it likely that i will be able to compete with a company that specializes in extracting mass amounts of water from that same stream? and private property rights do nothing to prevent that; rather they amplify it by making it more difficult for that individual to access the water and easier for the company who now holds a private property claim.


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J-Breakz Date: Monday, 11/Apr/11, 11:34 AM | Message # 30

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Quote (eboyd)
ok, so i finally got a chance to watch the video and i don't get how that has anything to do with tragedy of the commons.

Montana's law said that anyone near the stream can use it. Hence why they were about their problem of streams drying up.

Quote (eboyd)
the video discusses people who hold private property in streams who are incentivized by laws to consume more water than they actually need and deincentivized to conserve, and a solution that companies with a water footprint have been using to give the private property holders incentive to conserve.

Basically, Rob Harmon made a plan where he can work with the government and other companies to conserve water. But he also talked about how scarce water is, and implied that letting it be free just ends up being wasteful.... and it should be common sense to see why it is wasteful.

Quote (eboyd)
btw, it isn't individuals using common property that depletes and degrades supplies of products and/or raw materials. it is the people who band together in large groups, such as corporations, to take massive amounts of those materials, much of the time far exceeding actual consumption levels, and doing as they please with them.

what does "far exceeding actual consumption levels" mean? did you just make this part up because it sounded right in your head? Anyway, whatever, I'm saying that this will happen (a co-operative is a corporation) if you don't PRICE the resource. If the resource was treated like private property it would be priced and adjusted according to supply and demand.

Quote (eboyd)
and private property rights do nothing to prevent that; rather they amplify it by making it more difficult for that individual to access the water and easier for the company who now holds a private property claim.

again, do u just make up stuff because it sounds good in your head? If your going to say something that is completely 180 from what I said then at least provide some evidence. Who says the "company who now holds a private property claim" is gonna take the water if the company can make a profit by conserving and selling the water.

what happened to the hundred other things we were arguin about?


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