[ Copy this | Start New | Full Size ]

Login:
Password:
New messages · Members · Forum rules · Search · RSS · Profile · Logout
  • Page 1 of 1
  • 1
Forum moderator: TheWatcher, Menace, I_Guy, Aristotle  
Forum » Knowledge » Religious/Philosophical Debate » Communication Argument: Counter-Analogy of the Watchmaker... (...Argument)
Communication Argument: Counter-Analogy of the Watchmaker...
eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 1:50 AM | Message # 1

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
Imagine that you are a person who has been abandoned in the wilderness as a child by your parents and have lived off of the water of a nearby river, the meat of other animals, and the fruits on the bushes and hanging from trees. It has been 20 years since that fateful day that you were left there without a stitch of clothes to wear or any remnants of man made objects other than those that you have made yourself. As far as you are concerned, you are the only existing being of your kind. One day, while hunting for that night's meal, you come across something you have never seen before. It's shiny, gold band and frame are more solid and precisely constructed than anything you've ever seen before; it's face, which, upon closer inspection you find has an invisible cover, has magically moving pointers that point to weird symbols you've never encountered before; the material that makes up the thinner portion of the object, though it is very hard, somehow hangs limply, dangling helplessly as you hold it -- you have stumbled upon a finely made watch. Though you have had no human interaction that you can recall in your entire life, you are still an intelligent human being. Using your intelligence, you logically come to the conclusion that it was created by someone of or exceeding your intelligence. It is far too intricate and perfect to exist otherwise. You have made things in your environment and you can distinctly tell the difference between the things you have made and the things that exist independent of your intervention and so you can infer, by the same logic, the aforementioned statement.

The same can be inferred of our universe. Just look around -- it is far too intricate to not have been designed and, by extension, not have a designer.

And so goes the watchmaker argument (though detailed far beyond any interpretation I've ever actually heard).

Arguments for the existence of a God have tried and failed since the inception of philosophy. From the many ontological arguments to the rather lame Wager presented by Blaise Pascal, all have fallen flat on their face and most were debunked within a few decades of their inception (and that is being generous). The Watchmaker Argument, though obviously illogical to the atheist mind, has been an argument that, for some reason or another (probably because we feel it is so ridiculous that it needs no response) people who believe in a creator continue to cling to even today, over 100 years after it's inception. You may read a simplified version of the argument in a book or hear it in a video that promotes religion. Some of the most common versions of the argument include simple statements such as "look at the trees!" or "how could this have all come from nothing??". You may even come across a video on YouTube that claims to have "Proof of God's Existence" and upon watching it you find no words, but instead pictures of natural phenomena on different planets and elsewhere in the universe. Though, as an atheist myself, I can see how ridiculous this argument is, it is easily the most common and most rarely refuted claim (which would explain why I hear it so often) I have heard since proclaiming my disbelief in a God 2 years ago. It was the only argument my father, who is otherwise a highly rational person, could conjure when presented with my arguments. In essence the watchmaker becomes the only leg that belief in God has to stand on philosophically speaking. For these purposes, I have decided to make an analogy based on the same premises that the watchmaker is based on that shows the analogy itself is flawed.

The Communication Argument

For intensive purposes, let us presupposed the details of the watchmaker argument up until just before the discovery of the watch. However, instead of discovering this watch, one day, a group of scientists looking for a plant to create a new medicine from stumble upon you. Your first reaction is shock; you had assumed your whole life that there were no beings like you in existence. The next thing you notice is that these people are making noises between each other and that they seem to be understanding what the noises the other person makes mean. You also notice that these noises are much more complex than the noises that you make. They try speaking their language to you but, naturally, you do not understand. Using bodily communication, they make it clear to you that they want to take you with them. They travel with you to an object that is floating in the water and demonstrate that they wish for you to climb on to the object with them. You follow their wishes and with that, you and the scientists travel to a nearby city. This city fills you with more fascination, but for some reason, you are particularly interested in these weird noises they have been making.

Now let us fast-forward. It has been 5 years now since you were found by these people and brought to the city and you now have a basic understanding of the English language. However, with this understanding, the one thing that fascinated you when you were found by these people has only become more fascinating over the years. How could such an intricate code for communication come about? You first assume that human beings simply created it; language was simply specifically designed by these ultra-intelligent humans. However, now that you have gotten somewhat of an education in a formal society, you remember what the scientists taught you a few years back -- never believe an assumption someone makes until you research it and can back it up with evidence. So one day you ask one of the scientists to help you unlock the answer to this question. He is unable to help but he leads you to a linguistics professor that he knows quite well that he believes will be able to. You present your questions about language to the professor and he gives you an entire background on the history of language leading all the way back to the times that cavemen roamed the earth. Taking the scientist's advice to make sure to find evidence before believing someone's claims, you ask the professor to lead you in the right direction to some sources for his claims. He leads you to a book on etymologies and a few books on the history of language. These books go back to the origin of animals and the very first, rudimentary forms of communication that even the simplest animals today can be found participating in, most of which were forms of body language, leading into the earliest forms of verbal and written communication, and finally, some time after the hominid lineage had eventually evolved into homosapiens, organized language began to slowly develop. As you read the history of different forms of communication you find that the original written languages were mainly made up of carvings on cave walls that symbolized things the early humans saw on a daily basis. As communication progressed and human symbolism became more advanced, these symbols became more organized and advanced as well. So too, you find, was the story of verbal communication. What is more is that now that you look back to your 20 years in the wilderness, you realize that without even thinking, you were communicating with other animals just as the original animals did with those that they interacted with. When you wanted food and a fox also wanted it, you would stare the fox in the eyes to let it know that the food is yours and you are willing to battle it for the rights to your food. When you were face to face with a bear you turned and ran to let the bear know that you were in fear that he may harm you. When you met the scientists, they used basic communication skills such as body language to convince you to come with them. These were all rudimentary forms of communication that you unconsciously participated in. This new knowledge led you to the evidence that communication was not created, but rather an instinct of animal life.

The same can be said about God. Though a rudimentary and uneducated assumption based on observation of our surroundings can lead us to the logic that if such a complex and brilliant environment exists, it must have a designer, if we do further research into it, we will quickly find that people who are more educated than us have spent their lives finding ample evidence that it is likely that what we see around us has a completely natural explanation that is void of an intelligent designer and that instead the idea of an "evolving" universe is a more plausible explanation.

Please evaluate my analogy and give me constructive criticism so that I can improve it. Thanks :)


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

EmSeeD Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 2:26 AM | Message # 2

Heads
Posts: 11464
Reputation: 8
Offline
two new anti God threads made within two hours of each other, oh goody

the simple answer is we don't know exactly what happened at the beginning of the universe, when it comes to life on earth its safe to say we evolved. but i don't know about your language argument, i mean no one would ever think language was designed by an intelligent designer from the very beginning of the language maybe there's something else you could have used as an example. the youtube user "KabaneTheChristian" who does videos on apologetics but also believes in evolution used chewed up bubble gum as an example, the chewed up bubble gum looked all complex and everything but it wasn't intelligently designed it was just him chewing bubblegum


http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot
eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 2:43 AM | Message # 3

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
Though we may all agree that language wasn't invented overnight, to the uneducated mind it would seem that all these languages came about through human intelligence rather than being instinctively bred into us. That was the whole point and that is why it was a valid analogy.

And I know about KabaneTheChristian. He is less than a rationally sound thinker and since I can only assume that your description of his analogy is correct and based on my observation of his logic, it doesn't sound like his argument was a very compelling one.

Send me the link and I will watch the video.

And btw, sorry, but I've been getting deep into this lately and I came across that article and conjured this argument and felt I needed to post it/express my idea and gets some feedback on each and this was the only place I could think of to come to get this feedback.

Thanks for the response. :)


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:08 AM | Message # 4

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
bump (for I_Guy)

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

EmSeeD Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:13 AM | Message # 5

Heads
Posts: 11464
Reputation: 8
Offline
Quote (eboyd)
Send me the link and I will watch the video.

he's made quite a few videos and i can't remember what the video was called so i don't think i'd be able to find it even if i tried looking, and he has two accounts so i'm not even sure which account it would be on lol

his analogy was probably different i just said what i could remember from it, i didn't think it was that good either though but i don't know what else could be used as an example


http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot
eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:23 AM | Message # 6

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
In a roundabout way the other thread I posted was :D

It was a logical refutation of the most prevalent theistic God counter-proof that is known to man which has stood unrefuted for 2,500 years... But the refutation came from a fellow atheist on atheistic premises rofl


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 1:01 PM | Message # 7

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
Rumpa-bumpa (again! >( )

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:30 PM | Message # 8

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
explosive

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

I_Guy Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 4:11 PM | Message # 9

Heads
Posts: 1792
Reputation: 1
Offline
I like the analogy. It does parallel our situation. The only possible problem that I think you could encounter would be regarding the abilities of the wild child. That was the only thing that occurred to me as standing out. Someone might question the intellectual abilities of the primitive mind and the assumptions it might make about what it finds or encounters. But the mental abilities of the person isn't the point, the point is obviously to produce a possible occurrence that will adequately parallel the situation we do have. Some people may overlook that though.

We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 4:20 PM | Message # 10

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
i think the problem with that would be the assumption (that i would specifically expect from a religious person) of existence of "savage man". all humans have comparable intellectual abilities and someone forced into nature without human guidance either dies because he/she cannot figure out how to find the proper resources to survive, or that person uses logic to figure things out. that person would automatically, then, have to be very able to understand, at the very least, basic logic, simply by instinct, and carried over into the real world with a proper education over a period of 5 years, that logic would increase immensely along with that person's knowledge. and for argument's sake, let's argue that this person's IQ is in the range of what Einstein's was.

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 4:22 PM | Message # 11

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
and btw, if anyone wants to argue against my analogy because of the wild child, they have to throw out not just my argument, but the watchmaker argument itself, because my wild child is simply carried over from the watchmaker.

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 4:31 PM | Message # 12

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
Quote (8Diagrams)
You know IQ isn't a way to compare a person's intelligence? There is no way to do that, really.

it is reliable to certain margin of error. but it is not going to determine that George Bush is smarter than Albert Einstein (or even a walrus) so for the purposes of this thread it is plenty reliable. it is nowhere unreliable as you think anyways.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

I_Guy Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 4:36 PM | Message # 13

Heads
Posts: 1792
Reputation: 1
Offline
If someone would pose the question or argument, they need not, the concept of the "noble savage" was explored to the point of exhaustion by late 1800s/early 1900s novelists and philosophers. A quick look into it would quiet their questioning. But aside from what could be misunderstood, the analogy is sound. Any misunderstanding would not be your fault, it would be the idiot's.

We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 4:48 PM | Message # 14

Heads
Posts: 13145
Reputation: 2
Offline
Quote (I_Guy)
If someone would pose the question or argument, they need not, the concept of the "noble savage" was explored to the point of exhaustion by late 1800s/early 1900s novelists and philosophers. A quick look into it would quiet their questioning. But aside from what could be misunderstood, the analogy is sound. Any misunderstanding would not be your fault, it would be the idiot's.

rofl

yes, precisely :D


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

Forum » Knowledge » Religious/Philosophical Debate » Communication Argument: Counter-Analogy of the Watchmaker... (...Argument)
  • Page 1 of 1
  • 1
Search: