Anarchism is Unrealistic

Date: Wednesday, 09/Mar/11, 11:32 PM | Message # 1

Emcees

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i don't know what the fuck that shit is about either... or why they are listed as a group when i rarely see/hear any of them except earl, tyler, and hodgy beats.

and i don't want to sound like a total dick to you or erik or anyone else on here that takes an anarchist stance on things, but i've simply faded from the philosophy and i maintain a more moderate point of view, i guess.
on the politcal compass, i still sit as a "libertarian socialist" in terms of my personal thoughts on things, but in actuality, i just don't see anarchism working on a large scale (i'm talking like full US scale or some shit) and I see those sorts of views as extreme. and when i say extreme, i don't necassarily mean bad, i just see them as being somewhat exageratted or unrealistic.

Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_municipalism

Date: Thursday, 10/Mar/11, 2:41 PM | Message # 2

Heads

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)

i just don't see anarchism working on a large scale (i'm talking like full US scale or some shit)

you really have never even put a full effort, it seems to me, into grasping the idea of anarchism in its entirety. that's fine, as it seems that you aren't really interested anyways, and you would rather be apathetic to just about everything and live your own life (which is a mindset i despise but nonetheless i have no reason to hate you for it, as it is the mindset the majority of people have, though they have less knowledge of the world than you do for the most part), but when you say shit like "i don't see it working on the large scale", a statement that obviously shows your lack of grasp of the concepts within anarchism, then critique myself an Menace based on flawed assumptions and basically call us both idealists/dreamers, then there is no reason, in our eyes, to show you respect because, while you may not realize it, your very mindset is disrespecting our ideas and, by extension, us.

also, while you may feel like taking a more moderate stance makes you sound and seem more "mature", the fact that you came to it through apathy and an attitude of "fuck it, this shit can't change anyways" (aka naive and frustrated pessimism, which is the aspect of your thought process that Menace regards as "emo") actually proves that you have simply shifted your stance on things, but you have not matured a bit. in fact, you have possibly gotten more immature in that you find it more important now to seem mature and not believe in "childish fantasies", just because of your lack of understanding of politics and economics, and you don't wish to try harder to understand them. instead of trying harder to understand them, or simply conceding that you haven't studied enough and so you cannot say for certain what you believe, you refuse to work harder to learn this shit, then make assumptions based on your lack of knowledge. that, to me, is the definition of immaturity.

erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

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Date: Thursday, 10/Mar/11, 4:03 PM | Message # 3

Heads

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Quote (eboyd)

(aka naive and frustrated pessimism, which is the aspect of your thought process that Menace regards as "emo")

Thanks a lot .

Quote (eboyd)

actually proves that you have simply shifted your stance on things, but you have not matured a bit. in fact, you have possibly gotten more immature in that you find it more important now to seem mature and not believe in "childish fantasies", just because of your lack of understanding of politics and economics, and you don't wish to try harder to understand them. instead of trying harder to understand them, or simply conceding that you haven't studied enough and so you cannot say for certain what you believe, you refuse to work harder to learn this shit, then make assumptions based on your lack of knowledge. that, to me, is the definition of immaturity.

Exactly, when i don't personally know shit i don't make assumptions or insult peoples stance on that issue, if i don't care and don't know i don't even ask or get involved, Taylor just feeds on this, he's a troll, they feed on peoples nerves.

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 2:59 AM | Message # 4

Emcees

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Quote (eboyd)

man I think you're just way overthinking it. I did shift positions, but the whole thing about maturity never ran through my head one bit (and I know youre probably going to assume I'm just saying that, but I don't really care.)
I just started realizing how fucked up society seems to be... I mean just the nature of capitalism in itself is vicious IMO. it's a dog eat dog world, no regard for other people really. just kinda like a fuck-all type of thing.
and that shit beat me the fuck down, honestly. from around may 2010 until september 2010, it was on my mind constantly, and I did try reading and watching some lectures and documentaries, but I always ended up in the same place: pissed off OR discouraged. keep in mind however, i watched/read more about the injustices in our society than I did about successful anarchist and leftist movements, so maybe i just never gave it the right time of day.
anyways, like I was saying, I just felt like it was dragging me down. i'll take another approach at it sometime when my mind is more clear and i kinda have a fresh start on it all. i don't think I necassarily approached the whole thing correctly. i came into it just because of the whole "ANARCHY!!!!" thing, and it wasn't until later that I really started feeling strongly about it and realizing that it is more than just "ANARCHY!!" you know?

and just to let you know, when I say "fuck it", i'm not meaning to try and impede on anyone elses beliefs. you, menace, whoever else are free to try and change the world, but i feel like my effort could be put to better use in my community. that's another thing about my first bout with economics. i came into it thinking i could be this fucking magic wizard revolutionary... fuck that. i got ahead of myself. i'd rather just focus on bettering myself, then trying to better another person, then better my community, then my town, then my state, and so on and so forth. that's just my point of view though. i see why you take it as disrespect, but honestly i don't mean anything by it personally to you, or menace, or anyone when I say "fuck it".

btw erik i'm not sure if I told you, but i'm involved in a musicians cooperative in my town. we offer recording services, promotion, and practice areas to local artists, and we are based on democratic/cooperative principles. it's a legit organization too, i've been to a few meetings, and my band might actually sign up with them and begin doing work with them. they have a building and everything. they actually had their first art show tonight.
everything (and I mean everything) is voted on by members, and the various boards for different needs of the co-op are rotated every 6 months to a year, minus our financial guys who are in charge of making sure our rent is paid.
check out the page if you want.
Downtown Sound Music and Arts Co-Op

Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 2:49 PM | Message # 5

Heads

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all i was saying is that you need to stop passing judgments on something before actually learning about it. here's some material to prove me and Menace's points:

large scale examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

small scale examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania (this one still survives to this day)

erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 2:50 PM | Message # 6

Heads

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)

check out the page if you want.
Downtown Sound Music and Arts Co-Op

that's awesome bro! i wish i had something like that near me :'(

erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 5:11 PM | Message # 7

Heads

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LMAO, change the world, hahahahahhaa, don't feed the trolls Erik, this kid brags about the same shit over and over again, he thinks you and I are like Che Guevara inciting revolutions all over the world or something ROFL :D. He has such a pseudo-romantic and adventurous image of anarchists and socialists in general hahaha, ANARCHY!! ROFL, at that i really laughed, really

This kid needs to stop getting his information from punk rockers LOL

. Taylor, you know who ARE THE REAL ANARCHISTS NO? these people are the real anarchists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Trabajo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workers%27_Association

These are anarchists, not kids yelling ANARCHY!! and doing the pogo dance, working class chumps fighting for better wages,health benefits,collective bargaining etc. these are the anarchists, i myself am an union organizer as i already told you 1000 times, i work inside my community unionizing the workers, the unemployed and the students. So stop bitching, i don't know where the fuck you get this crooked image, you either think all anarchists are punks or you watch too much TV.

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 9:56 PM | Message # 8

Emcees

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Quote (eboyd)

all i was saying is that you need to stop passing judgments on something before actually learning about it. here's some material to prove me and Menace's points:

okay, and i think that's reasonable.
that's part of the reason i've given up on it for a time. i had too many pre-concieved notions, and i still do, and i'm just going to wait until my interest sparks back up (in a serious manner. i still ask questions, but not as in depth as i would be if i was honestly trying to sit here and philosophize and shit)

Quote (Menace)

this kid brags about the same shit over and over again, he thinks you and I are like Che Guevara inciting revolutions all over the world or something ROFL :

brag?
i swear to god, i don't know where you get some of the shit you say about me...
and it's quite the opposite. it seems like many people involved on politics, on either side, talk alot about big ideas, but they never go anywhere.

Quote (Menace)

i don't know where the fuck you get this crooked image

i get it from both sides. i see so many dumb rednecks out here talking about how they are ready to fight the government for gun rights, but all they end up doing is drinking beer and watching football.
same on the leftist side.
i see many people where i live talking about saving the enviroment or fixing worker/boss relationships or world peace or just things like that, and all they do is end up sitting in a coffeeshop ranting.

menace, you and I come from completely different backgrounds, i assume. we live in totally different places, from the little I do know about your family, i'm pretty sure it's a revolutionary background, and i mean honestly look at me.. i live in the burbs, have a fairly nice live. yeah, i've had some shit happen, more than lots of kids, but alot less than a WHOLE lot of kids. i'm in the middle. so i just think we're going to naturally have some differences. and i don't think that's bad either.
so i don't really know what i mean by that ^ but i just feel like it needed to be said. perspective, your past, and all that shit have a big impact on how you see the world and what needs to be done in it.

Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 10:18 PM | Message # 9

Heads

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Stop passing judgments on shit you don't know, don't want to learn or simply don't care, this is not the first time we talked about anarchism and more broadly libertarian socialism with you, i think, for almost 2 years we talked about this on RHHF, its not about asking questions, you asked a lot of questions throughout these past 2 years, i think,and we always answered the best we can with all of our hearts, the problem is the way you asked, the mannerism of it was quite awful, if i was a bad guy and didn't like answering to you or didn't like you then i wouldn't post such long replies. Its not backgrounds either when we talk politics or economics etc. when we talk music, lifestyle and that crap it might be, but when we talk about this then we imply knowledge and facts not assumptions and lifestyles. I didn't mind about our bickering over the OFWGKTA thread, it was music it was bullshit but when you go from that to this, its wrong, and it seems like trolling.

Date: Saturday, 12/Mar/11, 10:32 PM | Message # 10

Emcees

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Quote (Menace)

it seems like trolling

but it's not trolling if i'm serious. then it's me just saying what i mean.

Quote (Menace)

for almost 2 years we talked about this on RHHF,

i didn't actually start really even getting interested in it until about this time last year. so it's been just over a year.e

Quote (Menace)

the problem is the way you asked,

i don't know what that means. as far as i can remember, anytime i've asked questions, i always approach it as "i have a question, and i don't wanna sound ignorant or dumb but ------"
i don't understand how i sounded like a dick, but that's whatever, i could give a fuck less if i sounded like a dick to you. you're gonna come at me even if i act like the nicest motherfucker on earth. i'm always doing something to piss you off.

Quote (Menace)

. Its not backgrounds either

i'm gonna have to disagree and that's just because.. well take a rich rich rich person. they don't give a fuck about anyone or anything except their money, and they know that capitalism helps them keep their money, so they are probably going to be a capitalist at heart.
same goes for broke people. they are naturally going to lean toward idealogies that are FOR the people. the ones that help people out, the ones where there is less or no class seperation, etc. that's all i'm saying.
i think economic background, and just the way you've been treated by people in life has a big impact on the way you view economics. some are going to view the cup (of economics) half full, and others are going to see it as half empty.

Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.

Date: Sunday, 13/Mar/11, 9:23 AM | Message # 11

Heads

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)

Your being dishonest, this is the newest evidence of your dishonesty, Erik can vouch for me, when it came to politics or stuff similar i never gone berserk on you

Quote (Menace)

The first point from my personal perspective is this, I don't mind authority and hierarchy unless it can justify itself, but in many cases it can't, in nature hierarchy and authority is a self survival mechanism, bees feed their queen not because she is the ancestor of someone who proclaimed she or he had a divine right to rule, they feed her because she gives birth keeping their society functioning also the queen as no decision making power which is crucial for us. No earthly hierarchy can justify itself, there is nothing natural about the hierarchies we create, which i think are useless, we create useless webs of hierarchies that are insanely ridiculous, just watch how the state works, its the most ridiculous thing i ever saw, we have more simpler and more HUMANE ways of organizing ourselves without the need for eccentric layers of hierarchy which creates problems. Secondly hierarchy is created by the delegation of power it has nothing to do with charismatic people or even "leaders" because leaders eventually die power structures usually last, delegation of power eventually creates this huge state with useless hierarchies, if people are self conscious about their power they won't hand it to anyone, would give away your civil liberties ?? of course not because these liberties weren't given away by some leaders or by some governments but won throughout history by people like me and you . I can't explain this more simpler for you to understand so i leave you with this documentary. Please if your interested in this watch it, because i can explain this to you in a long ass rant in terms you wouldn't understand this documentary is pretty easy to understand.

Quote (Menace)

These groups of people are considered "cool" and ranked above other groups because they conform to some type of societal standards, which i think you really know especially in schools in the US were the football jocks are considered way cooler then other people. This is not natural, they are considered cool there but here they wouldn't , these are social constructs our society creates. These social behaviors reflect the values and morals your society is based on, if your society is based upon greed,hierarchy, competition,blind submission to authority etc. then you will have such individuals reflecting such values and building such structures around you. I will leave you with this quote byNoam Chomsky, so you can think about it, all of this is connected so THINK ABOUT IT, question your human nature don't limit it.

"Individuals are certainly capable of evil . . . But individuals are capable of all sorts of things. Human nature has lots of ways of realizing itself, humans have lots of capacities and options. Which ones reveal themselves depends to a large extent on the institutional structures. If we had institutions which permitted pathological killers free rein, they'd be running the place. The only way to survive would be to let those elements of your nature manifest themselves.

"If we have institutions which make greed the sole property of human beings and encourage pure greed at the expense of other human emotions and commitments, we're going to have a society based on greed, with all that follows. A different society might be organized in such a way that human feelings and emotions of other sorts, say, solidarity, support, sympathy become dominant. Then you'll have different aspects of human nature and personality revealing themselves."

Quote (ilikebacon3000)

Oh whatever, when you made stupid assumptions, so its not about background, its about the lack of KNOWLEDGE, stupidity and ignorance doesn't go hand in hand with background , Erik is the prime example, he comes from the same background as you. Or whatever, if your background makes you an idiot then more power to you.

Greeny

Date: Sunday, 13/Mar/11, 10:04 AM | Message # 12

OGs

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rofl, what drama.

Added (13/Mar/11, 10:04 Am)
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Quote (ilikebacon3000)

Self interest is one of the biggest problems with almost every ideologies. But I don't believe that the majority of people are that egotistic. We are a bit by design, but we are rational as well.

http://www.bookrags.com/Peter_Kropotkin

Date: Sunday, 13/Mar/11, 11:16 PM | Message # 13

Heads

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Taylor, Kropotkin is probably the best example that background has very little to do with beliefs (though I agree that previous experiences can help dictate your beliefs and future actions):

erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0