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Forum moderator: I_Guy, s0dr2, El_Matador  
Forum » Knowledge » Philosophy/Science » Are We Only Selfish?
Are We Only Selfish?
I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 0:09 AM | Message # 31

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Are we talking about a philanthropist? There must be some satisfaction the philanthropist gets from helping others. Maybe it's because he/she will then have something to say when people call them a selfish prick or maybe its because the person feels they helped make the world a better place. Either way it gives the person pleasure and motivation to continue doing it.

That may be the case for a philanthropist, though maybe not. But for Jew rescuers, who can say that their motive was pleasure? Couldn't pleasure simply be the result of the act not the motive?


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 0:24 AM | Message # 32

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Couldn't pleasure simply be the result of the act not the motive?

But if they were trying to reach the result of the act and not the motive and they reach the act and get pleasure, wasn't the subconcious motive really pleasure?


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Message edited by J-Breakz - Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 0:32 AM
I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 0:41 AM | Message # 33

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But if they were trying to reach the result of the act and not the motive and they reach the act and get pleasure, wasn't the subconcious motive really pleasure?

Not necessarily. (Aside from that, some people do things without really thinking.) But the point is that people might not even consider pleasure when doing something.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 1:14 AM | Message # 34

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Quote (I_Guy)
Something selfless may come out of us when life is directly at stake.

But that's out of the desire of wanting that life to continue living. You'll get pleasure from the fact that you helped.

How when you're DEAD?!


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J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 1:33 AM | Message # 35

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How when you're DEAD?!

Would you think about death when your son is hanging from a cliff? No, you think about saving him so you feel good that he is okay.


livin life like some cheesy movie
I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 1:41 AM | Message # 36

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The Jew Rescuers saved complete strangers.

We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 1:46 AM | Message # 37

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The Jew Rescuers saved complete strangers.

I wasn't talking about the jew rescuers, i haven't read enough about them to comment on it really. So debating me about it wouldn't really settle anything even if i were to have indisputable arguments.

indisputable arguments.... lol, that's an oxymoron isn't it? well you know what i mean.


livin life like some cheesy movie

Message edited by J-Breakz - Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 1:48 AM
eboyd Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:13 AM | Message # 38

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Would you think about death when your son is hanging from a cliff? No, you think about saving him so you feel good that he is okay.

As I have never been in such a situation I wouldn't know, but I would actually think that, even if only for a second, I would have acknowledged that I am going to probably die before making my decision. For example, let's say someone is about to get shot and he's too far away for you to knock him out of the way, but you can jump in the bullet's path and use your head to stop or deflect the bullet just enough so that it doesn't hit him. Let's also say that you are under the impression that you will die instantly after the bullet hits you, and this proves true. Let's also say you are an atheist so you don't believe in an afterlife and so you don't believe you will see him when from heaven. Let's also assume you do not know this person. So now you have no selfish reason to sacrifice yourself because you are well aware that you will be dead and you will get nothing out of that person surviving because nothing is going to happen as a reward for your act. It will be the last moment of your life and you won't be able to see what happens from that moment on. For all you know, maybe there was another bullet and the second one was still used to kill him anyways.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

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I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:24 AM | Message # 39

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As I have never been in such a situation I wouldn't know, but I would actually think that, even if only for a second, I would have acknowledged that I am going to probably die before making my decision. For example, let's say someone is about to get shot and he's too far away for you to knock him out of the way, but you can jump in the bullet's path and use your head to stop or deflect the bullet just enough so that it doesn't hit him. Let's also say that you are under the impression that you will die instantly after the bullet hits you, and this proves true. Let's also say you are an atheist so you don't believe in an afterlife and so you don't believe you will see him when from heaven. Let's also assume you do not know this person. So now you have no selfish reason to sacrifice yourself because you are well aware that you will be dead and you will get nothing out of that person surviving because nothing is going to happen as a reward for your act. It will be the last moment of your life and you won't be able to see what happens from that moment on. For all you know, maybe there was another bullet and the second one was still used to kill him anyways.

Exactly and that is what the Oliners are saying in their book. They are saying that (usually primarily) when life is at stake, people simply act. Sometimes they think about it, sometimes they don't, but in both cases it can challenge selfishness and start to shed light on selflessness.

Now there may be the same situation you described and the person knew that by taking the bullet they will be remembered for all time. Their decision to die would sort of be irrational but some would argue that this would be a selfish act. But we run into problems because these types of scenarios are not valid thought experiments because they don't obey a strict criteria. The simple fact is that all of these kinds of situations are only hypothetical (much of philosophy is hypothetical but these things are far too hypothetical) and that is something the Oliners point out, that we can never really know these things (or even validly predict) because people are complex and just because we want to presume selflessness doesn't exist (just because it is uncommon), it doesn't negate the possibility of its existence. It is difficult for anyone to say that in all human time there has never been a selfless act. As they say, come on now.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
Forum » Knowledge » Philosophy/Science » Are We Only Selfish?
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