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Forum » Knowledge » Philosophy/Science » Unconditional Love
Unconditional Love
eboyd Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 2:12 AM | Message # 1

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Alright, there's a bit of a story behind this thread. I'll give the short version.

So my girlfriend (who apparently doesn't know I'm an atheist even though I clearly remember telling her) checks my Facebook and comments on my religious beliefs thinking someone had hacked my account again as if it was a joke that someone said I was "none (atheist/rationalist/materialist)". Well, I casually ignored the suggestion to fix it and am waiting to find out how deeply religious she is. Meanwhile, I began asking suggestions from people like my atheist teammate on what to do about letting my girlfriend know. I decided to ask my dad by IM his opinion on the subject and my mom, having seen my dad typing, called me immediately to try to "help" the situation. First thing that happens when she calls is that she starts engaging me in an argument, getting all upset because I'm calling myself an atheist now, trying to convince me that I am an agnostic, not an atheist, showing that she's obviously oblivious to the true meaning of both terms. She got defensive and started interrupting me and getting pissed off when I tried to correct her so I let her talk.

Anyways, somehow this conversation evolved into one on the subject of unconditional love. My mom tried to claim that she loves me unconditionally and I asked her that if she comes down with Alzheimer's, dementia, amnesia, etc., or dies (given there is no afterlife), how could she continue to love me? If love can end on any condition whatsoever, it is, by definition, not unconditional. All of the above are conditions on which love can end. My dad got involved and tried to call my example a non-sequitur.

Well, what is your opinion on this subject? Do you believe in unconditional love? Do you think "unconditional" follows a different definition than the way I am defining it? Explain your answer in as much detail as possible please. Thanks.


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J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 2:53 AM | Message # 2

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Quote (eboyd)
Anyways, somehow this conversation evolved into one on the subject of unconditional love. My mom tried to claim that she loves me unconditionally and I asked her that if she comes down with Alzheimer's, dementia, amnesia, etc., or dies (given there is no afterlife), how could she continue to love me? If love can end on any condition whatsoever, it is, by definition, not unconditional. All of the above are conditions on which love can end. My dad got involved and tried to call my example a non-sequitur.

...you don't say that man, ofcourse love is just a human emotion that can be easily gone in some circumstances but you don't tell a mother that. You're never gonna love someone more than a mother loves her child. It's just animal instincts. And saying something like that must of really pissed her off. I know if i told that to my mom she would get pissed because she wouldn't even want to think about that.


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I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 2:56 AM | Message # 3

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Well I have noticed two interpretations of unconditional love with oppositions. There is the one you described where events outside of our control happen to us making us incapable of loving and then the one saying that people can't unconditionally love even when we are uneffected by things outside our control. Either way I don't think unconditional love is possible period.

Most defenders of unconditional love think of the "within our control" view that says we can love someone unconditionally within our control discounting happenings that can happen to us that destroy our ability to "unconditionally love." That's probably what your mom is thinking of.

As far as you revealing your atheism, well, that's a toughy. Call into the Atheist Experience lol. Nah but I think you'll have to get her close enough first before you reveal it. Make sure she knows you're a good person and means well. If there is any attachment developed between you two then that can make it even easier. Now I mean easier in the longterm though. The short term might be traumatizing for her, but the trust and attachment will allow her to adapt easier. Although this all depends on how deep her religions devotion is. Really it's a matter of her religious devotion versus her devotion to you.

If she is deeply religious, she probably will never see you the same. If she isn't very religious then you might be able to persuade her, and at that point it is possible that she will then look up to you.

You better find out how strong her religious devotion is first though. It would also help to find out how rational she is to know how well you will be able to talk to her about such complicated issues.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
abanks47 Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:14 AM | Message # 4

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what is your opinion on this subject? Do you believe in unconditional love? Do you think "unconditional" follows a different definition than the way I am defining it? Explain your answer in as much detail as possible please.

If you were to go by the definition of "Unconditional"
Main Entry: un·con·di·tion·al
Pronunciation: \ˌən-kən-ˈdish-nəl, -ˈdi-shə-nəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1666

1 : not conditional or limited : absolute, unqualified <unconditional surrender> <unconditional love>
2 : unconditioned

Than I think your assessment is correct. When I really think about it I don't think it does exist. I think there is something that any person can do, even a son to there mother that can change love to hate. Just recently me and my pops had a real big falling out, and because of my morals and the way I lead my life, I may never speak to him again. I dont hate him but I don't think that I love him anymore. All I got on the subject.

Added (05/Dec/09, 3:14 Am)
---------------------------------------------
Just wanted to add, hope shit gets better for you homie. With the moms and yo lady.


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"I Have No Fear Whatsoever of Anybody or Anything" -Malcolm X

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I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:20 AM | Message # 5

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The problem is that love has become an illusion (like many other concepts). Love is not an extending thing, it is an emotion. When someone says we are in love, they tend to think that they are always in love and it is long extending until they are no longer together. But when you realize that it is an emotion then you realize that it is simply spontaneous and temporary. I think we would all agree that none of us are ALWAYS mad, or always sad, or happy. They are not extending things. Just the same, nor is love an extending thing. Society tends to label romance or intimacy as "love" and that is where the misunderstanding comes from.

Aside from that, love can be broken down into other emotions and the act of "loving" is satisfying those emotions. Love can be seen as a culmination of other (sometimes conflicting) emotions. Some people will say that love is the culminations of all emotions exercised.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
abanks47 Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:28 AM | Message # 6

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The problem is that love has become an illusion (like many other concepts). Love is not an extending thing, it is an emotion. When someone says we are in love, they tend to think that they are always in love and it is long extending until they are no longer together. But when you realize that it is an emotion then you realize that it is simply spontaneous and temporary. I think we would all agree that none of us are ALWAYS mad, or always sad, or happy. They are not extending things. Just the same, nor is love an extending thing. Society tends to label romance or intimacy as "love" and that is where the misunderstanding comes from.

Aside from that, love can be broken down into other emotions and the act of "loving" is satisfying those emotions. Love can be seen as a culmination of other (sometimes conflicting) emotions. Some people will say that love is the culminations of all emotions exercised.


Good read, good point.


A WELL DRESSED SKELETON SLOWLY CUTS YOUR THROAT.

"I Have No Fear Whatsoever of Anybody or Anything" -Malcolm X

“those who consider themselves the most adamant adherents of “real” hip-hop can also be the least knowledgeable.” –Adilifu Nama; an excert from his perception of Nas’s “Genesis”

eboyd Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:40 AM | Message # 7

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Yeah, I've heard, and am intrigued by, the arguments that say that love doesn't actually exist also. I would say I probably prescribe to I_Guy's idea of love being a composite emotion, but I'm still not quite sure. As for Abanks, sorry to hear about you and your dad. As for that argument, I knew about it but I didn't want to even touch on it. I actually considered bringing up the scene in Godfather Part II where Michael kills his brother on the boat lol but I knew that argument was one which my mom would be too horrified to even fathom so I spared her that argument.

And J-Breakz, please. When someone holds a false belief in something such as unconditional love, especially if it is my mom who I am supposed to be able to speak openly with (and blessed be the universe that she is open minded enough to not judge me as bad as the average christian and allow me to talk to her on this subject :D ), then there is nothing wrong with me trying to get her to think critically and realize that belief is irrational. As a matter of fact, although she cried a bit when I brought it up to begin with (she's a hardcore crier so she naturally cries about everything anyways. It's not as big of a deal as it sounds), she texted me afterwards to let me know that, while the conversation got a bit heated, she felt enlightened when she got a chance to sit down and think about what I had said.


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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

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J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:43 AM | Message # 8

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Quote (eboyd)
And J-Breakz, please. When someone holds a false belief in something such as unconditional love, especially if it is my mom who I am supposed to be able to speak openly with (and blessed be the universe that she is open minded enough to not judge me as bad as the average christian and allow me to talk to her on this subject :D ), then there is nothing wrong with me trying to get her to think critically and realize that belief is irrational. As a matter of fact, although she cried a bit when I brought it up to begin with (she's a hardcore crier so she naturally cries about everything anyways. It's not as big of a deal as it sounds), she texted me afterwards to let me know that, while the conversation got a bit heated, she felt enlightened when she got a chance to sit down and think about what I had said.

I still think your an evil cold hearted monster!

[Edit] I was gonna wait for you to respond to that b4 letting you know that I'm kidding but I dont wanna get bannd


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Message edited by J-Breakz - Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:44 AM
I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:49 AM | Message # 9

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idea

J-Breaks-> mario lordmeth <-Eboyd = banned


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:51 AM | Message # 10

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Btw, thanks for the relationship advice. I had sort of come to the same conclusion (great minds think alike because of logic lol!), however, since she already saw my status on facebook (which I refuse to change), she is likely to check it again and wonder why I haven't fixed it soon, at which point I will probably have no choice but to explain. :( I don't think it should be bad though. While she goes to church, it seems to me more like she is open minded. She doesn't strike me as very devout. Of course it is ridiculous that I don't actually know this about her for sure yet, seeing as we've been together for almost 9 months now (granted, we've spent nearly 5 of those 2,000 miles away from each other), but we're always around her sister so I never get an intimate moment to actually talk to her and learn who she really is. It kind of pisses me off, but I'm trying. She was trying to see me by herself while I was home last week but that never happened. Besides, she still owes me reciprocation for the naked pics I sent her MONTHS ago ;)

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

eboyd Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:53 AM | Message # 11

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LMAO! Y'all 'r' dumb :D

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erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 3:54 AM | Message # 12

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however, since she already saw my status on facebook (which I refuse to change), she is likely to check it again and wonder why I haven't fixed it soon, at which point I will probably have no choice but to explain.

Yeah, that unfortunate thought crossed me, but hey just use man's greatest invention ever....LIE! Nah just kidding. You're definitely in a tight spot though. Damn.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
EmSeeD Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 4:26 AM | Message # 13

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She doesn't strike me as very devout.

is she the same girl as the picture you showed me in pm a long time ago?

then again you have slept with her so maybe that's because she's religious, depends on how deeply religious she is though,


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J-Breakz Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 4:28 AM | Message # 14

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however, since she already saw my status on facebook (which I refuse to change), she is likely to check it again and wonder why I haven't fixed it soon, at which point I will probably have no choice but to explain.

Why don't you change it just to make her happy but then when you have a chance to talk to her face to face and the topic of religion comes up you explain to her that you are an atheist?


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I_Guy Date: Saturday, 05/Dec/09, 4:43 AM | Message # 15

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Why don't you change it just to make her happy but then when you have a chance to talk to her face to face and the topic of religion comes up you explain to her that you are an atheist?

Eh, she might interpret that as lying.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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