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Forum » Knowledge » Religious/Philosophical Debate » Jesus & Socialism ((Was he a socialist?))
Jesus & Socialism
Menace Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 5:51 PM | Message # 1

Heads
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They are 10 reasons why people think he was the first actual socialist of course before the birth of the dogma these are the 10 reason:

The funny thing is, I'm not a Christian. 1. Jesus owned nothing. 2. Jesus argued for the dissolution of the family and the establishment of communes. 3. Jesus loved all people regardless of ethnicity or class. 4. Jesus revolted against the imperial government, established religion and finance capitalism (usury). 5. Jesus taught that we should act as one body, one blood. 6. Jesus taught that his kingdom (ie nation state) is in the heart and not below the feet. 7. Jesus taught that we should fight for Justice and 'turn the other cheek' to petty morality. 8. Jesus was a laborer and a teacher. 9. Jesus practiced healing and forgiveness. 10. Jesus taught that you can't be an imperialist and a disciple at the same time.

But wait This depends on what one means by “socialism”. And there are huge difficulties in trying to force the 1st-century Jew, Yoshua Ben Yosef, into a 21st-century political mould. Universal suffrage and human rights were undreamt-of in his age; even Greek democracy was city-based and excluded slaves and women.

But by focusing on the Gospel narrative, stripped of its theological accretions, one can get a sense of where Jesus might stand on today’s political spectrum.

For all their inconsistencies, interpolations and reliance on hearsay, the Gospels paint a compelling picture of the man and his conception of how people should treat each other.

He would definitely be on the left, but equally definitely, would not be a socialist of the revolutionary or even activist type. He saw no role for the secular state in redistributing wealth and power -- the heart of the socialist platform. He could perhaps be described as a utopian liberal.

Traditionally, Jesus is betrayed by the Zealot Judas because he refuses to lead a struggle against the Roman occupiers -- and his foxy rejoinder on the payment of Roman taxes, “Render unto Caesar … ” tends to support this.

“The first shall be last ... ”, “the meek shall inherit ... ”, Lazarus and the rich man and many other Gospel passages do seem to suggest imminent revolutionary upheaval.

But Jesus is clearly not predicting the reversal of power hierarchies in this world, nor urging the poor and downtrodden to overturn them. Instead, they are told to love their enemies and offer the other cheek -- the watchword is patient submission, not revolt.

It is in the impending Kingdom of Heaven that the poor will have their reward. Jesus was convinced that he was ushering the “great and terrible day of the Lord” prophesied in Judaic scriptures, which would turn the world upside down.

Indeed, his confident prediction that his disciples would see the coming of the Kingdom in their own lifetimes rather puts paid to the doctrine of his “divine nature” (which he never claimed). The end did not come then and has not come since, despite the incessant forecasts and timetable revisions of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Wrote theologian JC Duncan in 1870: “Christ either deceived mankind by conscious fraud; or he himself was deluded; or he was divine. There is no getting out of this trilemma.”

The deferment of social justice to the Kingdom prompted Marx’s “opium of the masses” jibe. It also underpins Nietzsche’s idea of Christianity as a “slave ethic”, which, by sanctifying their status and promising other-worldly redress, took the underclasses of the Roman empire by storm.

Yet, at the same time, Christ’s basic ethical perspective -- his sense of who will enter the Kingdom -- has been a taproot of modern, mass-based democracy and the democratic left-wing perspective.

The latter implies a belief in the unity of the human species and in people as fundamentally good, redeemable and cooperative by nature. Among the corollaries are sympathy for the underdog, hostility to insolent power and wealth, and anti-militarism.

All are central motifs of Christ’s message, which appears as the last gasp of the Judaic prophetic tradition (“You levy taxes on the poor [and] persecute the guiltless,” thunders Amos). In Luke, he sets the tone in his first public utterance: good news for the poor, the release of prisoners, freeing “the broken victims”. Peacemaking, justice and mercy are extolled. Repeatedly, “his heart goes out” to the hungry crowds; he protects an adulteress from stoning; he asks a Samaritan “untouchable” for a drink.


EmSeeD Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:07 PM | Message # 2

Heads
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Diehards, life-deniers and moral tyrants down the ages have drawn rich sustenance from Paul, who tells us that slaves should obey their masters “with fear and trembling”, that women “reflect the glory” of their male overlords, and that all must submit to the civil powers, ordained by God to punish crime.

quote these


http://chirbit.com/emseed
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s0dr2 Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:11 PM | Message # 3

OGs
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I'm not a Christian

what are you then?...just curious


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain



Message edited by sodr2 - Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:11 PM
Menace Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:21 PM | Message # 4

Heads
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“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.” Ephesians 6:5,

1 Corinthians 11:7-9
"For a man . . . is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man".
For man is not from the woman, but woman from the man.
Nor was man created for woman, but woman for the man."

2:11-13
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man,
but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. "

and Emseed i dont interpret them what i write here is the interpretations of the people that used them in their favour


Menace Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:24 PM | Message # 5

Heads
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Quote (sodr2)
what are you then?...just curious

i have my own spiritual beliefs tho i favour Christian gnostics and Sufist muslims cause they are the only religious cults that have practice spirituality and the understandin of inner self and being close to God rather then the others that worship idols my religion as i was born was islam i was a muslim


EmSeeD Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:33 PM | Message # 6

Heads
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1 Corinthians 11:7-9
"For a man . . . is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man".
For man is not from the woman, but woman from the man.
Nor was man created for woman, but woman for the man."

in verse 13 he says decide for yourselves, but reading that chapter made me realize something. Paul was just another man, debating and suggesting things and not everything he says has to be concrete in the church.


http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot


Message edited by EmSeed - Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:33 PM
Menace Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:39 PM | Message # 7

Heads
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But in the Lord women are not independent of men, and men are not independent of women. This is true because women came from man, but also man is born from women.

in verse 13 he says decide for yourselves, but reading that chapter made me realize something. Paul was just another man, debating and suggesting things and not everything he says has to be concrete in the church.

well thats why male supremacy still exists today those lines are proof that we men were and are sexists i will make a thread i know that arent so many women here but i will make a thread about sexism on all levels of society and Emseed i agree but ive put them lines there to present the ignorance of the right wing and how the right ignore pretty much ignores Jesus's teachins


EmSeeD Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 9:43 PM | Message # 8

Heads
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well thats why male supremacy still exists today those lines are proof that we men were and are sexists i will make a thread i know that arent so many women here but i will make a thread about sexism on all levels of society and Emseed i agree but ive put them lines there to present the ignorance of the right wing and how the right ignore pretty much ignores Jesus's teachins

yeah i know, it really makes me sad when i see those right wing churches coz there are so many youth there etc, but the more left wing and churches that stick to the message of Jesus are almost empty, really makes me sad. That's why one day i wanna make songs about that stuff showing the true Jesus.


http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot
Menace Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 10:00 PM | Message # 9

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Quote (EmSeed)
yeah i know, it really makes me sad when i see those right wing churches coz there are so many youth there etc, but the more left wing and churches that stick to the message of Jesus are almost empty, really makes me sad. That's why one day i wanna make songs about that stuff showing the true Jesus.

well maybe your perspective gonna be tempered whit too but showing the true Jesus well i like that idea , unity , brotherhood. peace , those are some of Jesus's utopian society and i never understood at no one of the abrahamic religions whats a holy war?? how can a war by holy?? its war no?? never the less war is evil u cant debate that ohh by the way the cross symbol haves really nothing to do whit the worship of Jesus the cross itself is old haves pagan roots plus Emperor Constantine a angel came into his dream and told him to wear the cross in a battle and he will win its strange wear the cross into battle or battle under the cross and kill


s0dr2 Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 10:09 PM | Message # 10

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keep in mind st. paul was appointed by Jesus to give advice to the people....he was trustworthy, as it is mentioned in the bible

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

EmSeeD Date: Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 11:48 PM | Message # 11

Heads
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well maybe your perspective gonna be tempered whit too but showing the true Jesus well i like that idea , unity , brotherhood. peace , those are some of Jesus's utopian society and i never understood at no one of the abrahamic religions whats a holy war?? how can a war by holy?? its war no?? never the less war is evil u cant debate that ohh by the way the cross symbol haves really nothing to do whit the worship of Jesus the cross itself is old haves pagan roots plus Emperor Constantine a angel came into his dream and told him to wear the cross in a battle and he will win its strange wear the cross into battle or battle under the cross and kill

the cross is an important symbol in christianity

Quote (sodr2)
keep in mind st. paul was appointed by Jesus to give advice to the people....he was trustworthy, as it is mentioned in the bible

all the apostles were and they didn't always agree, they were leaders who were coming up with their theology trying to start a movement i guess. This is kinda weird but it seems in a way commercialism has kinda ruined what christianity is meant to be hasn't it? if you look at the fundamentalists they're always talking about money, tithing and they say God wants us all to be millionares and the way to be a millionaire is to give tithes PLUS more offerings on top of that to the pastor. They always talk of their country like it was God's promised land they use as a business. The pastor of the church i used to go to is a multi millionare and compares his church with the mc donalds franchise, it makes me sick, the church isn't supposed to be a business.

some even go as far to say that Jesus was a rich man and that because he rode a donkey he was riding the equivalent of a Mercedes Benz, (even though Jesus only borrowed the donkey) they use stuff like this to justify they're own lifestyle.


http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot


Message edited by EmSeed - Wednesday, 19/Nov/08, 11:51 PM
Menace Date: Wednesday, 26/Nov/08, 10:25 AM | Message # 12

Heads
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Quote (revolutionarywarfare)
well i'm not into religion (never really read the bible), but i love history

if youre saying that jesus was the first socialist you should really check your terminology (socialism is a political movement that started in the 19th century, partly in response to the situation of the poor working class and as a result of enlightening and upcoming democracies in europe)

therefore it almost sounds silly to argue that jesus was a socialist. in addition to that, socialism is a non-religious movement while jesus basically defines christianity (lol). at the time when jesus lived humanity and civil rights were not existing. of course greek and roman philosophers were pretty modern and the world wasnt all bad but you have to keep in mind, that you cant compare it to our modern world where we all possess our freedom and where we have the right to speak for ourselves..

well u ever read what i said in this article ?? thats was my point and i tried to put Jesus ideas in one political idea cause right wingers fascists and mostly conservatives use religion as a tool and as proof to show their ideas in this thread i showed that Jesus was in the standards of today a utopian liberal not a conservative right winger as people portray him and socialism is not that by definition and Karl Marx and Jesus had many things in common maybe not on the religious level but on a social level


Menace Date: Wednesday, 26/Nov/08, 10:26 AM | Message # 13

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and i said : But by focusing on the Gospel narrative, stripped of its theological accretions, one can get a sense of where Jesus might stand on today’s political spectrum.

s0dr2 Date: Wednesday, 26/Nov/08, 10:37 AM | Message # 14

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Quote (EmSeed)
all the apostles were and they didn't always agree, they were leaders who were coming up with their theology trying to start a movement i guess. This is kinda weird but it seems in a way commercialism has kinda ruined what christianity is meant to be hasn't it? if you look at the fundamentalists they're always talking about money, tithing and they say God wants us all to be millionares and the way to be a millionaire is to give tithes PLUS more offerings on top of that to the pastor. They always talk of their country like it was God's promised land they use as a business. The pastor of the church i used to go to is a multi millionare and compares his church with the mc donalds franchise, it makes me sick, the church isn't supposed to be a business.
some even go as far to say that Jesus was a rich man and that because he rode a donkey he was riding the equivalent of a Mercedes Benz, (even though Jesus only borrowed the donkey) they use stuff like this to justify they're own lifestyle.

first the apostles didnt try and com e up with their own theology, they all shared the same views right after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled them with knowledge

also christians give out tiths to help out the church, but also to minimize man's love for money because you cannot worship God and mammon....however if the church uses this money for their own benefit, its wrong, but keep in mind a priest doesnt have a fixed salary

and finally if you think that a donkey is the equivalent of a mercedies benz back in the day, you need to get your balls sergically removed, lol....horses/chariots would be a better ride


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Menace Date: Wednesday, 26/Nov/08, 10:41 AM | Message # 15

Heads
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Quote (sodr2)
first the apostles didnt try and com e up with their own theology, they all shared the same views right after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled them with knowledge

also christians give out tiths to help out the church, but also to minimize man's love for money because you cannot worship God and mammon....however if the church uses this money for their own benefit, its wrong, but keep in mind a priest doesnt have a fixed salary

and finally if you think that a donkey is the equivalent of a mercedies benz back in the day, you need to get your balls sergically removed, lol....horses/chariots would be a better ride

the religious institutions are not state control or are part of social or private control and they dont pay taxes u know how much money religious institutions make ?? HUGE HUGE TONS OF MONEY i dont know who said this but he said the one good way to get rich is to create a religion whatever preaching the truth or not its an institution a power institution so is poisoned to get corrupted


Forum » Knowledge » Religious/Philosophical Debate » Jesus & Socialism ((Was he a socialist?))
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