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Vegetarianism
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 8:05 PM | Message # 46 |
Heads
Posts: 13145
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And btw, that stereotype of the dumb jock exists in actuality, but you converse with me on a daily basis and therefore you know that it does not hold completely true for all of us. One of our quarterbacks is taking a course in social stratification right now and we had a full conversation discussing the effects of heirarchy in the United States and the fact that, though well hidden, it is an absolute fact that we are living in a classist society. one of our other quarterbacks is in business courses, maintaining a 4.0. Though it is true that we have some idiots on the team, a large portion of us are quite well educated and headed towards a successful life in one field or another that will be more than beneficial to society.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 8:20 PM | Message # 47 |
Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (eboyd) Fun is, in hard times, the only thing that keeps us from doing something irrational. Without fun there would be an epidemic of insanity and even suicide/suicide attempts.
People like this need to get off of their emotions, and do something to make what ever is troubling them better, not run for an escape like a coward. It usually only compounds the initial problem. Quote (eboyd) Fun is a monster?
Well this would be an issue of terminology. I wouldn't call what we need "fun." I would call it positive mental stimulation. So tell me why it can be consistent for some people to find it "fun" to read an essay on philosophy and some find it oh so dreadfully boring because they would rather go to a party or watch a game. Is there plainly nothing wrong here or is there? Is someone not striving for excellence? Why not strive for excellence? Why settle for less? My main point is, "fun" would be considered a eustress and therefore good for the mind. But why must these "fun" activities be so intellectually challenged? Why can't we generate more productive "fun" activities? An activity can be "fun" and productive at the same time, unfortunately our major ideas of "fun" are not productive. The truth is, it is easier to be lazy minded and people are inclined to be, that's why almost everything considered "fun" is intellectually challenged or completely irrelevant to everything else in our lives. We all know that "fun" is most often an escape. An escape from what? Reality and responsibility? Usually. We have to reevaluate what value fun has, and what value it can have by being productive. Examples of productive fun, going to a Museum, or a Science Symposium, or watching something educational. But you see here, people tend not to think anything educational is "fun." People want to party five days of the week and play video games, and every other waste of time. That's simply our generation. It only gets worse as corporations push more bullshit into our lives to distract us because we don't have enough god damn self control or forethought to resist. You think the greatest men in the world gave a fuck about fun? In most cases, they gave fuck about thinking. Unfortunately Idiot America has lost that vision. Quote (eboyd) Occasional distractions are a necessity for individuals in a society.
Distraction is actually sort of a negative word. Hard to consider it necessary.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 8:21 PM | Message # 48 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) My point was that if we have a responsibility to make something happen, we can't sit around and think other people will make it happen. Just like in the game, it was up to each individual as a part of the whole to make that tackle. If we let our pondering consider other people's ponderings, we will be discouraged, because we fear our action is in vain alone, or we feel someone else must make the first move. Take it from Gandhi, "We must be the change we wish to see." We have a duty to the Earth and that is to take care of it, because if we don't we're gone. But we'd rather make excuses, as if they are truly justified Yes, I agree. So that person should make his first move by convincing others of his world view. When he gets enough people to follow it he has a movement. When he has a movement he has the ability to finally take the action of boycotting the fast food industry and so now he can afford not to eat there. He may, at that point, be ultimately making a sacrifice of, say, not eating for a few days for his movement, but until then, it is useless as an individual to starve yourself in the name of not eating meat.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 8:26 PM | Message # 49 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (eboyd) Yes, I agree. So that person should make his first move by convincing others of his world view. When he gets enough people to follow it he has a movement.
Let's say this man does this, but everyone he encounters gives him an excuse. Such excuses as, "well it tastes goooood!" or "well there's nothing I can do" or "but it's natural." They say they play sports and need the meat to be qualified. Let say these people are too close minded to consider the bigger picture and the rational alternatives. Let's say they are too stuck in their ways to ever think twice about the issue. Let's say they are too shallow minded to consider the depth of the matter. Let's say the veil of ignorance and naivety covers their eyes blinding them of the truth, because that is exactly how the corporations want it. What then? Let's say the man spreads the word for his entire life and encounters only a few who have the courage to take on the problem with him. This is no movement, and the people unresponsive are people who care too much about their petty problems in life to care to change the sustainability of the Earth for their children and the future. They would rather conform to social norms because their minds aren't strong enough to withstand the ignorant derision. They would rather support the companies that rape the world of its beauty and resources, the same companies that fuck the people on a daily basis. What wise people, and what an unfortunate world this man is faced with. Can we really expect one man to manage this great task. No the fact is we need everyone to individually conclude within their own mind what is rational and reasonable, and break loose of their lazy consciousness. Fortunately, their are movements already rolling. What would be the excuse for people not joining? PETA? There is the movement, why don't people join it? For all the reasons stated above. You have to admit that slaughtering animals in the way we do is on the level of murder, rape, and slavery. No one can be justified in denying this. I'd like to address the whole fast food thing. It is actually more expensive to eat out then it is to shop for groceries. Most people buy a $4-$5 dollar sandwich (varying accordingly depending on where you live), or they get a value meal for as much, and it is often for an entire family. So their looking at about $20 a meal. Groceries would get you much further, and if you replace the expenses of meat with vegetables, you come out about the same. Now this applies primarily to white America. Of course, their are poor people who may feel they must eat at fast food for some reason. But their are plenty of available opportunities for these kinds of people: food stamps, discount markets, Ramen noodles, cheap shit like that.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 9:47 PM | Message # 50 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) People like this need to get off of their emotions, and do something to make what ever is troubling them better, not run for an escape like a coward. It usually only compounds the initial problem. yes, because it is just that simple. Quote (I_Guy) Well this would be an issue of terminology. I wouldn't call what we need "fun." I would call it positive mental stimulation. So tell me why it can be consistent for some people to find it "fun" to read an essay on philosophy and some find it oh so dreadfully boring because they would rather go to a party or watch a game. Is there plainly nothing wrong here or is there? Is someone not striving for excellence? Why not strive for excellence? Why settle for less? My main point is, "fun" would be considered a eustress and therefore good for the mind. But why must these "fun" activities be so intellectually challenged? Why can't we generate more productive "fun" activities? An activity can be "fun" and productive at the same time, unfortunately our major ideas of "fun" are not productive. The truth is, it is easier to be lazy minded and people are inclined to be, that's why almost everything considered "fun" is intellectually challenged or completely irrelevant to everything else in our lives. We all know that "fun" is most often an escape. An escape from what? Reality and responsibility? Usually. We have to reevaluate what value fun has, and what value it can have by being productive. Examples of productive fun, going to a Museum, or a Science Symposium, or watching something educational. But you see here, people tend not to think anything educational is "fun." People want to party five days of the week and play video games, and every other waste of time. That's simply our generation. It only gets worse as corporations push more bullshit into our lives to distract us because we don't have enough god damn self control or forethought to resist. You think the greatest men in the world gave a fuck about fun? In most cases, they gave fuck about thinking. Unfortunately Idiot America has lost that vision. as an intellectual (or at least pseudo-intellectual) myself i occasionally need an escape from applying large percentages of my mental capacity as well and so i party (though i do not drink/smoke/use illicit drugs) or play games that do not involve my brain at any high usage level. this has a scientifically provable reason behind it. let's delve into body physiology for a moment. let's remember that the brain is a muscular organ. just as any other muscular organ, your brain cannot be functioning at full or high capacity for 100% of the time that you are cognisant. this would be an overload. imagine your whole day all you do is wake up, then go to the gym and work out. you bench press for 4 hours, squat for 4, do sit ups for 4, then run for another 4. you then go to bed and sleep for 8 hours and wake up only to do the same routine again. how long do you think you would survive doing this? now granted, this is a heavily dramatized example, but it is still comparable. even the heart works significantly less efficiently at times of rest. if you overload your brain you may force yourself to suffer unnecessary mental issues. for this reason it is vital that every human, from the school idiot to Albert Einstein, needs to have his/her occasional "vacation" from intellectual stimulation. Quote (I_Guy) Distraction is actually sort of a negative word. Hard to consider it necessary. there are plenty of negative words that describe things that are necessary. you have a problem with that? consult the people in charge of revising the English language. Quote (I_Guy) Let's say this man does this, but everyone he encounters gives him an excuse. They say they play sports and need the meat to be qualified. Let's say the people he encounters are too close minded to consider the bigger picture. Let's say they are too stuck in their ways to ever think twice about the issue. Let's say they are too shallow minded to consider the depth of the matter. Let's say the veil of ignorance and naivety covers their eyes blinding them of the truth, because that is exactly how the corporations want it. What then? Let's say the man spreads the word for his entire life and encounters only a few who have the courage to take on the problem with him. This is no movement, and the people unresponsive are people who care too much about their petty problems in life to change the sustainability of the Earth for their children and the future. What wise people. but he is still doing something and he can learn from every individual he encounters. he can change his formula for convincing people with each person he encounters. he can take the argument of the athlete who needs meat to maintain weight and find examples of athletes who are vegetarian (if there are any) and then use studies and scientific proof to show that vegetarianism is not only healthier and stops animals from being slaughtered, but also that it is false that vegetarianism makes it harder to maintain weight. maybe give that person a sample meal plan that will not only be healthy and meat-free, but it will not make weight and performance loss inevitable. the reason i have not yet been convinced is that the studies i have been exposed to (remember, i am a certified personal trainer as well. i have studied this moderately), as well as the studies my world renowned nutritionist bases his practice off of, have shown that vegetarianism is, in reality, not healthy for the human body as, over thousands of years of evolution we have adapted both an ability and a necessity to process animal proteins. if you can prove otherwise (and i am picky about my sources) i myself may even consider becoming a vegetarian at some point in the distant future (it is a big life change. it is not something that will happen for me in the near future because that would be irrational on my part). because of this research i have done, along with others who i have spoken to, however, i feel that human beings eating meat is no different from animals who do the same. it is natural. many people who make the choice to eat vegetarian food and stop eating meat end up getting sick because of it. some people can do it because of their unique physiology and therefore, more power to them. others do not adapt as well. i've heard of vegans and vegetarians having problems such as liver failure directly related to vegetarianism. now i know you are going to ask for a source for this claim and i will tell you that i do not have one. this is not a scientifically backed opinion. it is one based on second hand information i received from my mother who is a nurse and took care of these types of patients or had friends who did and she has been in the profession for over 25 years. but please, i will be more than open to sources that disprove my notions of vegetarianism as unhealthy, however, you need to be well aware that i will provide my own opposing information.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 9:55 PM | Message # 51 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (eboyd) for this reason it is vital that every human, from the school idiot to Albert Einstein, needs to have his/her occasional "vacation" from intellectual stimulation.
Agreed, but we still should avoid wasting time and unproductive or negative activities. Quote (eboyd) it is natural.
Not everything natural is good or beneficial to the whole. By staying within some of the natural orders we will continue to face the most basic problems. The vegetarians that are unhealthy are not unhealthy because they are vegetarians. They are unhealthy because they are not eating right. They usually neglect proteins. Any diet can be a bad diet if not followed correctly.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 10:02 PM | Message # 52 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) You have to admit that slaughtering animals in the way we do is on the level of murder, rape, and slavery. No one can be justified in denying this. absolutely. we need reform in the way we kill animals. it is quite gruesome the way that people attempt to save money so that they can slaughter these animals. however, if we considered a lion killing it's prey murder, should we treat all lions as murderers as well? obviously not. so if we did resort to more humane methods of -- we'll call it "putting the animal to death" -- we should not be considered murderers for it. idk about the rape thing though. although people in the south and midwest (the main regions where beef is slaughtered) are into incest, i don't think they are into bestiality  Quote (I_Guy) I'd like to address the whole fast food thing. It is actually more expensive to eat out then it is to shop for groceries. Most people buy a $4-$5 dollar sandwich (varying accordingly depending on where you live), or they get a value meal for as much, and it is often for an entire family. So their looking at about $20 a meal. Groceries would get you much further, and if you replace the expenses of meat with vegetables, you come out about the same. Now this applies primarily to white America. Of course, their are poor people who may feel they must eat at fast food for some reason. But their are plenty of available opportunities for these kinds of people: food stamps, discount markets, Ramen noodles, cheap shit like that. price is not the only thing to consider here. there is also the issue of convenience. it is convenient for many people to eat at these places. they cannot take the majority of blame for eating at such restaurants. and again, i was speaking to Taylor who, as he has made me believe, is a lower class citizen. if this is true, for convenience and price purposes, it is more than likely easiest to eat at McDonald's/BK/etc. we will continue this, hopefully tonight some time. i need to go to a pep rally right now. i'll be back in an hour or so, maybe a little longer.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 10:05 PM | Message # 53 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (eboyd) however, if we considered a lion killing it's prey murder, should we treat all lions as murderers as well?
A lion has no other way, and especially doesn't have the capacity to know of any other way. We do. Quote (eboyd) price is not the only thing to consider here. there is also the issue of convenience.
That would be a weak selfish justification. I would say you are more justified than many others though, because you have actually thought about it and at least have a decent defense. Most people just dismiss it right away without thought, and that is where the major problem is. By the way I'd like to again mention that I am pescetarian, so I'm not only on veggies. Fish is considered the healthiest meat to eat, and they aren't so brutalized as mammals and birds are. Seafood doesn't even know its dieing. The simpler the creature is the less pain it feels. Really pescetarian is usually a transitioning phase to vegetarian. I am unjustified in eating seafood, but I plan to drop it someday. However, you have to admit that it is of a lesser degree of burden on the conscience. Just waiting for the day scientists figure how to efficiently grow meat on lab platters. Then we'll really have a solution. I don't want to call it a moral issue, because I don't believe it is. I find it more as an illogical unjustified phenomena.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 10:19 PM | Message # 54 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) That would be a weak selfish justification. I would say you are more justified than many others because you have actually thought about it and at least have a decent defense. Most people just dismiss it right away without thought, and that is where the major problem is. ok, and btw, i don't eat fast food personally. i do, however, eat a lot of meat and right now it is VERY convenient because i have a card to eat at my college as much as i want all semester and i am having trouble affording things out here so eating meat there (pretty much all they have) is VERY convenient for me. also, i never feel content solely off of vegetables for the lack of protein. alright, peace for real now lol! i'll be back soon.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 10:21 PM | Message # 55 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (Joker13) this means you approve of G.e. crops right?
No, we haven't sufficiently developed that science yet.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 10:41 PM | Message # 56 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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They need to experiment more before we put it in our diets. All anyone needs to know is in one of the best books on health, The China Study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study By the way, an example of how this so called "moral" problem is actually logically supported.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 11:00 PM | Message # 57 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (Joker13) ... what? i mean you approve of it's studies and for them to continue it unlike those people that sit outside markets and make cheap political points sorry to sound dumb, but what is this study you speak of? i've never heard of it.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| ilikebacon3000 |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 11:19 PM | Message # 58 |
Emcees
Posts: 3979
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Quote (eboyd) You are right. You have no need to stop eating McDonald's, etc. The bottom line is that many Americans, such as you and I, though we do not live in poverty we are close, so for us, what is the easiest way to eat on a daily basis money and convenience-wise? The answer is fast food. Anyone blaming you for that needs to shut the fuck up. However, if you can, I would say try to avoid feeding the machine, but in this society there is really nothing you can do. You need to eat.
Yeah and also it's alot easier when you are having to juggle a band, school, job-hunting, and sleep.
High school is eating me up. I took all AP classes so I have a stupid-amount of work at times and it's soooo much easier to eat off of the dollar menu than to cook a full meal which can take up to an hour if you want a good meal, rather than Ramen.Added (17/Sep/09, 11:19 Pm)
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Quote (I_Guy) Social revolution and economic change will never come if people continue to think this way. We're fooling ourselves. We all think there is nothing we can do. There's plenty we can do. We're dooped, just as the profiteers of corporations intend. This kind of shit is like segregationists back in the day trying to justify why segregation is okay, because they don't want to face the unpreferred reality. good point. I am just going to stop eating meat because me eating meat directly affects the whole world.
Fuck that.
I just don't care. I like eating meat. I like mcdonalds.
Not everyday. Not all the time. I like meat when I want meat. Big whoop.
I am not going to sacrifice what I have out of pity for others. I might as well enjoy my oppurtunities.
Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
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| eboyd |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 11:32 PM | Message # 59 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (Joker13) I don't wanna use wiki but im too lazy to search around right now so just take it lol! thanks.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 17/Sep/09, 11:57 PM | Message # 60 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (ilikebacon3000) Yeah and also it's alot easier when you are having to juggle a band, school, job-hunting, and sleep.
High school is eating me up. I took all AP classes so I have a stupid-amount of work at times and it's soooo much easier to eat off of the dollar menu than to cook a full meal which can take up to an hour if you want a good meal, rather than Ramen.
Quit making lousy excuses. You need to better manage your time. But YO check this out! Go buy some fucking vegetables and you can grab then right out of the fridge or your pocket and BANG! There you go, quick, easy, and convenient. You can't tell me driving out of your way everyday to a fucking McDonalds and waiting at least 5 minutes (usually more) to get your food and then return to your duties, is convenient? ITS SIMPLE, buy your food from the store and take it with you. It can't get more convenient or less expensive. Quote (ilikebacon3000) Fuck that.
I just don't care. I like eating meat. I like mcdonalds.
Not everyday. Not all the time. I like meat when I want meat. Big whoop.
Then you better not go around thinking you are a "moral" person. You should have a degree of shame, but probably not. You are obviously not thinking. Your reasoning is extremely shallow. Have you seen eboyd's argument? Go read it and steal some of his ideas. His argument is actually worthy of being considered. Yours is straight wack. I can't believe you like McDonalds. That shit is horrible. Super Size Me? Quote (ilikebacon3000) I am not going to sacrifice what I have out of pity for others.
It's not about pity. It is a logical and empathetic argument, not an emotional and sympathetic one.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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