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Forum » Knowledge » Philosophy/Science » Vegetarianism
Vegetarianism
eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 0:54 AM | Message # 61

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what i find inconvenient about buying food in general from the store is that i have to plan out what i need (or i will poorly manage what i buy and such planning can take up to an hour depending on how much i am buying and how many people i am buying for), drive to the store, buy what i have planned to buy, set a consumption schedule (or else i will consume the food much quicker than i plan to and i will be going back to the store too soon), follow it, pack my foods accordingly, and all the while, hope that i planned it right and that the food doesn't spoil while it sits in my refrigerator. this is far less complicated if you just go to McDonald's or, in my case, Lenny's, The Huddle House or the cafeteria (which is my usual because i eat as much food as i want and i have it paid off for an entire semester). back home i would go to the local sub shop, the Mediterranean restaurant in Santa Monica (which, like many of the restaurants in LA, has a vegetarian menu, but i still buy the lamb gyro plate there. that's my favorite restaurant), In & Out (the somewhat healthier alternative in fast food burger joints), Quiznos, or Brite Spot (has an extensive vegetarian menu but, again, i still eat meat there) out of sheer convenience; cooking is far too time consuming for me. i had my entire day planned out as well: wake up at 5:30, leave at 6:30, arrive in Culver City for workouts at 8 (traffic in LA is a BITCH! avoid the 405 at ALL COSTS if you ever come! trust me!!!), finish at 10 and leave to go to Inglewood, arrive at Quiznos for a quick snack between workouts, arrive at the gym to lift at 10:30, leave at 12, arrive at school for track & field practice at 1, finish practice at 3, have a quick whole meal shake (protein shake + carbs and veggie nutrients), begin football lifting at 3, finish at 4, begin football conditioning at 4, finish at 6, grab a quick snack between football and class, class at 6:45, mid class break at 7:30 (5 minute break, maybe 10), quick dinner from the cafeteria (usually a small and insignificant sandwich and a pasta salad from the TCBY/Starbucks inside) at 7:30, finish class at 9:30/10, leave, arrive at home around 10:30, grab a quick late night meal (not healthy but i needed to get it in somehow. i was supposed to eat 7 meals a day) at 11, go to bed at 12, lather, rinse, repeat, 5 days a week. i did that for 8 months. in case you are wondering, yes, i did suffer from the side effects of over-training lol! as i've shown here though, it was much more convenient for me to eat quick meals at restaurants as opposed to food that i prepared at home and i would have never gotten through such workouts if it hadn't been for the animal protein that i was ingesting because it was nourishing my muscles which were being broken down on a daily basis. it is also unhealthy to do meals all day consisted solely of meal replacement shakes so i cannot do that in place of animal proteins either. my nutritionist (who is actually a world renowned biochemist as well) told me it is not healthy to consume more than 3 of them a day and even 3 is pushing it.

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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

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I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 1:03 AM | Message # 62

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Come on Erik, you know the large majority of the world doesn't have your schedule. So for them to use the convenient card is just a laugh. Your position is very understandable. But you know how many fat asses there are out there just being lazy.

We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 1:10 AM | Message # 63

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Quote (I_Guy)
Come on Erik, you know the large majority of the world doesn't have your schedule. So for them to use the inconvenient card is just a laugh. Your position is very understandable. But you know how many fat asses there are out there just being lazy.

this is true, but even when i am not following my usual schedule... hell, even when i have been depressed (for example, when my mom was in the hospital for encephalitis 2 years ago and all i did was go back and forth between the hospital and home for 2 weeks) and pretty much did nothing but stay at home, eat, leave the house to go see my mom and go to school every other day, i was still eating out, partly because it was just far more convenient than eating at home, but mainly out of habit.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 1:15 AM | Message # 64

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Quote (eboyd)
but mainly out of habit.

Like this? pass


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 1:53 AM | Message # 65

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Quote (I_Guy)
Like this? pass

rofl

yeah, like that :D


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

EmSeeD Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 1:54 AM | Message # 66

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hey i just wanted to say i think I_Guy is right, we're still evolving and a part of evolution is the diet. I think now that the human race can live without meat we should slowly evolve more into vegetarians. its just part of evolution, i won't go fully vegetarian though i'll still eat some meat but i'm gonna eat a lot more vegetables etc, this is coming from a guy that usually only eats meat and junk food

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eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 3:11 AM | Message # 67

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Quote (EmSeeD)
hey i just wanted to say i think I_Guy is right, we're still evolving and a part of evolution is the diet. I think now that the human race can live without meat we should slowly evolve more into vegetarians. its just part of evolution, i won't go fully vegetarian though i'll still eat some meat but i'm gonna eat a lot more vegetables etc, this is coming from a guy that usually only eats meat and junk food

i absolutely agree that morally speaking, if we want to have freedom for all and absolute liberation, we need to grant animals the same rights that we grant ourselves. we should consider the slaughter of an animal to be murder and everything. however, if we do evolve back into a vegetarian species, evolution doesn't happen in a few years or even a few hundred years. it takes thousands of years to realize an evolution as significant as that.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 3:46 AM | Message # 68

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I know everyone loves to see this.


Only one of many.



We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
ilikebacon3000 Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 7:43 AM | Message # 69

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Quote (I_Guy)

Quit making lousy excuses. You need to better manage your time. But YO check this out! Go buy some fucking vegetables and you can grab then right out of the fridge or your pocket and BANG! There you go, quick, easy, and convenient. You can't tell me driving out of your way everyday to a fucking McDonalds and waiting at least 5 minutes (usually more) to get your food and then return to your duties, is convenient? ITS SIMPLE, buy your food from the store and take it with you. It can't get more convenient or less expensive.

I don't have to go out of my way to a Mcdonalds. I walk by the same on several times a day, and it is only busy during lunch, or from 6-8. Otherwise its pretty desolate. But I see what your saying.

Quote (I_Guy)
Then you better not go around thinking you are a "moral" person.

You can't really argue morals. It's something that is too... I think objective would be the word but I don't know.
Yes, I have seen Meet your Meat and supersize me.
The thing I don't get is how/why it matters at all, if I like eating meat sometimes, and if it's from McDonalds or not. I simply just don't see any logic in thinking that I am supporting a giant corporation who kills it's custamers, exploits it's workers, and somehow keeps people starving. I don't see it. 3 dollars to them is nothing. 3 times 4 is 12. 12 times 12 is 144. 144 dollars a year seems like a lot, but it really really isnt to them.
So I mean... Damn. I don't get it. At all. I'm just dumb.


Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
Menace Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 3:06 PM | Message # 70

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vegan prices rise because they are owned by those that own meat production is simple business technique

Quote (Joker13)
we can barley feed everyone on the fucking planet but yet your selfish and you wanna feel all " moral"

excuse but we can't feed everyone on the planet because big business destroys food intentionally for market stimulation not because vegans act all cocky


eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 3:24 PM | Message # 71

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But... How will I continue to be a BAMF without eating meat? :D

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

Menace Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 3:35 PM | Message # 72

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Quote (eboyd)
But... How will I continue to be a BAMF without eating meat?

eat a turnip communists eat turnips LOL :D


I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 6:11 PM | Message # 73

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)
I walk by the same on several times a day

Yeah because they're on every corner. :D


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
EmSeeD Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 7:09 PM | Message # 74

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Quote (Joker13)
the fact that i guy showed any video with peta kills all the creditability they are a bunch of assholes that killed more then a hundred dogs and cats but yet idiots wanna forgive them and believe their bullshit they are all crazy nuts. and saying to go with out meat is fucking retarded we can barley feed everyone on the fucking planet but yet your selfish and you wanna feel all " moral" about things people would starve when you find a fucking way to grow crops really quick and enough too feed everyone then please do so but as of now it's not happening

did you watch the video, sure not all meat factories are probably like that, but those were pretty shocking and the employee's got fired after that.


http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot
I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Sep/09, 7:13 PM | Message # 75

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)
You can't really argue morals. It's something that is too... I think objective would be the word but I don't know.

You mean subjective? I'm not arguing morals. I'm saying people should stop pretending they are moral, because first of all conception of morals as we know it can't objectively exist, and even if it could exists, these people wouldn't be moral.

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
The thing I don't get is how/why it matters at all, if I like eating meat sometimes, and if it's from McDonalds or not.

Well the problem here is that you are assuming that only you have value in this world, so the only thing that you would think matters is how YOU feel. Have you forgotten the Golden Rule? The Golden Rule is not a moral one, it exclusively a logical one.

(I have a feeling you haven’t been reading all of my posts, if you did you would know [but perhaps I‘m not being clear], and you probably won’t read this one either anyway, but nevertheless I digress)
Stay with me, I’m going to try to break this down. Taylor, I assume you believe in evolution, correct?

If you do then you understand that you are a product of the Earth. You should also understand that you are among other products of the Earth (other animals). At what point do you have the right to kill another animal? Nature would say (and it is correct) you gain the right to kill another animal when it becomes necessary to sustain your own life.

Now keep in mind that we don’t even really have the “right,” I am using the term “right” for clarity reasons. A better word would be “need” or “necessity.” We don’t have the "right" because nature is cruel, and we simply have to steal and take rather it be lives or property, because that is simply how the natural world is set up, so a “right” is nowhere to be found in nature with only one exception, “the right to life,” and even it is more of a subjective pseudo-right. The fact that we use our “right” (need) to take another creatures “right” (life) is in itself a contradiction. Do you see the problem? The fact that one animal has a “right” to life does not over-justify another animal’s "right" to life. Natural evolution has put animals in the situation of “do or die,” “kill or be killed.”

Now do you agree that we are ourselves natural animals of Earth? If you do then you realize we are on the exact same level as other animals when it comes to existence. But I hope you do realize that we have escaped nature. If you don’t agree, then you have to agree that we have at least escaped the majority of its cruelty. Why have only we escaped and no other animals? The answer is we were fortunate enough to evolve more advanced then other animals (we evolved so drastically because positive adaptations compound the evolutionary process, thereby multiplying the complexity of our development). And we use these advantages against other animals despite our ability not to. This doesn’t seem wrong to you? The term defining this is “specist” the same as racist, I assume you get it?

The point is, once you realize that all creatures of Earth are on the same cosmic level, you then realize that we are not so different than they, and that it is our duty to share the Earth with them, and the fact that we have the ability to help them should be all the more reason to share the Earth with all other llife. Because we have escaped the natural dilemma of nature. The animals haven’t. So why do we continue to live by nature's cruel set up?

If we gain the ability to make something better, and it positively affects us in the long run, why do we neglect this ability? It would be logical to exercise this ability.

Now let me explain why it is our duty to take care of the earth and animals, and essentially not exploit them. You might be sitting there like, “how the hell is it my duty to not care only about my self? How is my duty to take care of the Earth and animals, they don‘t take care of me!” Well you see, by treating the Earth and other animals carefully we then assure the future of our own existence. You have to understand that one aspect of nature we haven’t escaped is the necessity to form symbiotic relationships of reciprocity. This is a natural law of Earth, and even the universe too. It has always been this way. This law was applied to us from the first day life spawned on this planet. You should understand that everything is energy and atoms and everything will remain energy and atoms as long as the universe exists as it does. That is why this law exists because all atoms are dependent on each other to ever come together and for anything ever to happen. Now simply amplify the idea. All things depend on each other because everything breaks down to atoms. We often don’t realize how connected everything is. This is the barrier to our situation. People don’t realize this mega-picture. Therefore we tend to only think about ourselves, and that is okay because that is how natural evolution has set it up. But you see, by maintaining this symbiotic relationship with all things, we then become safe. If we don't respond this Law of Symbiosis and Reciprocity, then we are doomed. It may seem like I’m just trying to be “moral” and simply give to everything, but actually the root of my argument is a selfish one. Nature has made it necessary to be selfish, because if you are not selfish you will not survive. If we do not change our ways we will disrupt this necessary natural symbiosis, and we therefore we would be actually be going against our self-interest. This makes the argument logical.

So let me try to tie everything together. The fact that all life is one organism, means that we must keep it alive, and the only way to do that is be responsible and wise. We have to think very deeply about our position in nature and try to foresee the effects of our actions. The path we are taking now is unwise and irresponsible. Because if we do what I have elaborated, then we will progress further into a positive future and a sustainable existence. Furthermore, this whole lecture is a philosophy of self interest. Because remember, self interest has been an element of Earth's nature since the beginning.

Take into consideration this quote from Carl Sagan:

“We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.”

It’s my favorite quote of all time and it is so true. It really helps put our existence into perspective.

Now remember, in the beginning of this response I mentioned that the problem is that you think only of yourself as having value by thinking the way you do. We have to realize that everything (primarily life) has equal value and that we are not the only ones. Nature has made it hard for us to properly understand life's value because we are naturally self-interested when it comes down it. But by supporting our environment and other life, we satisfy this self-interest because we ensure our own existence. But we have to remind ourselves that as we grow more intelligent we become obligated to relay it back to the value of life and use our intelligence to make it better for all life. If we do this it will make our life better as a result.

Basically it is the same concept you have about only caring about yourself, except the concept has been intellectualized to serve a wiser purpose. In the long run, it is self-interested, but it would make everything better. This ideology tends to seem "moral" but it is clearly a logical argument.

This probably wasn’t clear or developed enough. If not let me know. %) :D

Quote (Joker13)
the fact that i guy showed any video with peta kills all the creditability they are a bunch of assholes that killed more then a hundred dogs and cats but yet idiots wanna forgive them and believe their bullshit they are all crazy nuts. and saying to go with out meat is fucking retarded we can barley feed everyone on the fucking planet but yet your selfish and you wanna feel all " moral" about things people would starve when you find a fucking way to grow crops really quick and enough too feed everyone then please do so but as of now it's not happening

You got to be kidding me. I know exactly where you get that bullshit info from. You get it from that bullshit ass show called "Bullshit." It's the first result when you search "PETA" on Youtube. Don't act like you think that bullshit ass show is credible. That show is equivalent to Fox News at times. And don't act like you get your info from credible sources. And even if the "PETA Conspiracy" were true, their flaw would be irrelevant to the idea of vegetarianism and everything it advocates.

This probably wasn’t clear or developed enough. If not let me know.

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
I simply just don't see any logic in thinking that I am supporting a giant corporation who kills it's custamers, exploits it's workers, and somehow keeps people starving. I don't see it. 3 dollars to them is nothing. 3 times 4 is 12. 12 times 12 is 144. 144 dollars a year seems like a lot, but it really really isnt to them.
So I mean... Damn. I don't get it. At all. I'm just dumb.

How can you not see the logic. Of course you are supporting them. You give them your money don't you? It is fact that you support them. You realize that many other people are giving just as much if not more. Boom, there's the problem. If you can't understand this, then I don't know how you will ever understand all that shit I wrote above.

GET MY FUCKING POINT. This isn't about morals, it's about something I call "collective logic." That is the most logical understanding that considers "all" to apply to "all." The foundation of our society is not logical.

Quote (EmSeeD)
did you watch the video, sure not all meat factories are probably like that, but those were pretty shocking and the employee's got fired after that

Of course they're all not like that. But the problem is you never know which ones are.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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