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Philosophy Accomplishes Goals That Religions Wish They Could
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 3:29 PM | Message # 16 |
Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (sodr2) what about religious philosophers? that's a different story in itself. religious philosophers are very unconventional religious folks. Quote (sodr2) and i dont see any nonreligious people selling ALL they have to the poor and living in the desert as hermits how many religious people do you see doing that? besides, there is a balance between irrational humbleness and greed and it rests on logic. think of this: if you sell everything you have and live in squalor for the greater common good and i continue making a lot of money, living comfortably and still giving back, based on the large sum of money i make, who is going to help more people (in a solely economic sense), you or me? i think it is obvious that i, the wealthy philanthropist will, because i have more to give, and you have only given what you had which is very little. i am making more effort to help others than you are in that essence. not to say that you aren't doing great things, and that is only based on one aspect of it, you may be doing great things without the necessity of money, but i just based it around continuing your analogy. Quote (sodr2) id like to see an explanation for this as well i'll let I_Guy handle this one. i am not seeing it either. i don't think forgiveness can be correlated to philosophy or religion any more than it can be to the other.
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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 3:31 PM | Message # 17 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (EmSeeD) what is true humbleness to you then? i consider myself to usually be quite a humble guy but aparently i'm only superficially humble? no, the humbleness that you have is not caused directly by your religion. someone who was taught to be humble by their religion in strictly religious terms, when asked why they did a specific selfless act, will usually say that it was because God told them to. if you can admit that you did it because it seemed right, then you are not being humble in the name of religion, but in the name of your own personal philosophy.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 4:38 PM | Message # 18 |
Heads
Posts: 2162
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You can say that religion helps provide a security among people though, it provides answers. Even if they may not be the right ones, it puts peoples minds at ease. Philosophy is just questioning things and talking about it.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| Menace |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 4:58 PM | Message # 19 |
Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (J-Breakz) You can say that religion helps provide a security among people though, it provides answers. Even if they may not be the right ones, it puts peoples minds at ease. Philosophy is just questioning things and talking about it. yes that's why secular philosophy is healthy for the mind sometimes living in a lie could be good but bursting outside that bubble could be a shock thats why some people are afraid to think as some say " outside the box "
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| I_Guy |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 6:28 PM | Message # 20 |
Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (EmSeeD) id like to see an explanation for this as well
We had a discussion some time ago about determinism and indeterminism and deliberatism. Once these concepts really begin to manifest in your daily thoughts you begin to see things in a different way. To be honest before I learned anything about these concepts, it was much eaier for me to place blame on people, or seek retaliation. But once I realized that determinism and indeterminism does have some sort of role in reality, it made it easier to forgive, because I realize that some situations and some actions were significantly unavoidable, so it became less the fault of individuals. There are many things like this involving philosophical concepts that, once applied to your perception of life, begin to break down the mistaken mentality that religious influence has created in cultures and societies throughout the centuries. Rather we like it or not, all societies are built on some version of religious mentality by some degree of religious influence. This mentality has subliminally created an inclination to blame and punish, because it has in its understanding human beings as some sort of mystical entity that should account for its own actionsl. This is simply mistaken. It is an old, less sophisticated way of looking at things. I'll give you another reason. The whole mind-body problem reaveals similar effects. Once you realize that human beings REALLY aren't in control of their paths in life, and once you realize that they don't REALLY have full control over their actions and decisions, then it is again much easier to forgive. Our brains controls us, "we' (whatever the hell "we' is. "We" is actually a false abstraction.) do not control our brain. Really what it boils down to is realizing that this false idea of "self" accountabliltiy can't really be possible. To make it more clear, it's like blaming your dog for chewing up your shoe. The dog really doesn't know any better, or have any real control over it, and the situation was essentially unavoidable. You can view humans in a similar way. The point is that philosophical pondering has revealed the logical flaws in the millenia old inclination to blame and punish.
I need not mention why findings in psychology has allowed for easier forgiveness, (mental illnesses, complexes, etc.) Quote (EmSeeD) i consider myself to usually be quite a humble guy but aparently i'm only superficially humble?
It can be in someone's character naturally or taught by another source other than religion.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| I_Guy |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 6:39 PM | Message # 21 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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I'm really not trying to flaunt in this thread. I'm just pointing out the encroaching obvious. I've been realizing a lot of these things for a while now and I'd just like to know if anyone else can see it in the same way. It's sort of fascinating that philosophy can reach the same conclusions but through logic and reason instead of assumptions and whim.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 6:41 PM | Message # 22 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) We had a discussion some time ago about determinism and indeterminism and deliberatism. Once these concepts really begin to manifest in your daily thoughts you begin to see things in a different way. To be honest before I learned anything about these concepts, it was much eaier for me to place blame on people, or seek retaliation. But once I realized that determinism and indeterminism does have some sort of role in reality, it made it easier to forgive, because I realize that some situations and some actions were significantly unavoidable, so it became less the fault of individuals. There are many things like this involving philosophical concepts that, once applied to your perception of life, begin to break down the mistaken mentality that religious influence has created in cultures and societies throughout the centuries. Rather we like it or not, all societies are built on some version of religious mentality by some degree of religious influence. This mentality has subliminally created an inclination to blame and punish, because it has in its understanding human beings as some sort of mystical entity that should account for its own actionsl. This is simply mistaken. It is an old, less sophisticated way of looking at things. I'll give you another reason. The whole mind-body problem reaveals similar effects. Once you realize that human beings REALLY aren't in control of their paths in life, and once you realize that they don't REALLY have full control over their actions and decisions, then it is again much easier to forgive. Our brains controls us, "we' (whatever the hell "we' is. "We" is actually a false abstraction.) do not control our brain. Really what it boils down to is realizing that this false idea of "self" accountabliltiy can't really be possible. To make it more clear, it's like blaming your dog for chewing up your shoe. The dog really doesn't know any better, or have any real control over it, and the situation was essentially unavoidable. You can view humans in a similar way. The point is that philosophical pondering has revealed the logical flaws in the millenia old inclination to blame and punish. I need not mention why findings in psychology has allowed for easier forgiveness. i don't think we have that little control over our actions. i think even the dog chewing the shoe has more control than you make him out to have.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 6:42 PM | Message # 23 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) I'm really not trying to flaunt in this thread. I'm just pointing out the encroaching obvious. I've been realizing a lot of these things for a while now and I'd just like to know if anyone else can see it in the same way. It's sort of fascinating that philosophy can reach the same conclusions but through logic and reason instead of assumptions and whim. i know, but it still did initially come out as flaunting and i needed to make sodr aware that the idea was not to flaunt.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Saturday, 28/Nov/09, 6:48 PM | Message # 24 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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By the way sodr, usually most theistic philosophers will toil with theology, which is clearly something different.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 4:50 PM | Message # 25 |
OGs
Posts: 2772
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Quote (eboyd) how many religious people do you see doing that?
its called monasticism Quote (eboyd) if you sell everything you have and live in squalor for the greater common good and i continue making a lot of money, living comfortably and still giving back, based on the large sum of money i make, who is going to help more people (in a solely economic sense), you or me? i think it is obvious that i, the wealthy philanthropist will, because i have more to give, and you have only given what you had which is very little. i am making more effort to help others than you are in that essence.
ok you are helping more people... but thats being more helpful than humble, i mean you can be giving thousands of dollars to the poor with pride... i think its the percentage of what you give that makes you humble Quote (I_Guy) it's like blaming your dog for chewing up your shoe. The dog really doesn't know any better, or have any real control over it, and the situation was essentially unavoidable. You can view humans in a similar way.
while im not familiar with determinism or the other concepts youve mentioned....doesnt a dog act on instinct whereas we have a conscience and do know better? and even if Quote (I_Guy) some situations and some actions were significantly unavoidable, so it became less the fault of individuals. and id also like to know how forgiving your brother 77 times in a day is superficial forgiveness
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
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| Menace |
Date: Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 5:35 PM | Message # 26 |
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Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (sodr2) its called monasticism on a universal scale religion accomplished NOTHING everything from the universal human rights act to common labor and voting rights were won and achieved trough a secular initiative the only thing good in a global scene that came from religion is the " liberation theology which rose in some parts of Latin America but the idea was ultimately decimated by US backed groups as the Contras for example
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 5:46 PM | Message # 27 |
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OGs
Posts: 2772
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Quote (Menace) on a universal scale religion accomplished NOTHING everything from the universal human rights act to common labor and voting rights were won and achieved trough a secular initiative the only thing good in a global scene that came from religion is the " liberation theology which rose in some parts of Latin America but the idea was ultimately decimated by US backed groups as the Contras for example
Religion (according to the Bible) that is pleasing to God is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, bring hope to the hopeless and comfort those who mourn, treat others the way you want to be treated, and forgive those who hurt you. Let me ask you a question - if, sadly, your house were to burn down, and you lost everything (except your life), would YOU want the above-mentioned Biblically-defined religion? Or would you prefer to live in the gutter? You tell me - what good is religion, and what has it accomplished? Added (29/Nov/09, 5:46 Pm)
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ok that was straight from Y!A... how about classical music?
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
Message edited by sodr2 - Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 5:42 PM
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| Menace |
Date: Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 5:47 PM | Message # 28 |
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Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (sodr2) Religion (according to the Bible) that is pleasing to God is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, bring hope to the hopeless and comfort those who mourn, treat others the way you want to be treated, and forgive those who hurt you. Let me ask you a question - if, sadly, your house were to burn down, and you lost everything (except your life), would YOU want the above-mentioned Biblically-defined religion? Or would you prefer to live in the gutter? You tell me - what good is religion, and what has it accomplished? that make no sense one what does my situation have to do whit religion ? and second even tough religion preaches that it just preaches it and nothing else nobody will help my situation maybe my insurance company or eventually the state will help me get on my feet but not religion . Man sometimes you make no sense at all
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 5:50 PM | Message # 29 |
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OGs
Posts: 2772
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people do strange things... when theyre in love
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
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| Menace |
Date: Sunday, 29/Nov/09, 5:50 PM | Message # 30 |
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Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (sodr2) how about classical music? what about classical music ?? classical music encompasses both the liturgical and the secular for example Beethoven's 5th symphony was created because he didn't like Napoleon and his exploits in Prussia so its relative
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