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Forum » Knowledge » Philosophy/Science » Purpose For Existence?
Purpose For Existence?
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 17/Dec/09, 1:06 AM | Message # 61

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It's an example of someone who argues and argues and doesn't keep track of where the argument has been and where it's being taken.

I think it's more of an example of miscommunication.


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eboyd Date: Thursday, 17/Dec/09, 3:56 PM | Message # 62

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machines replacing human workers forces them to educate themselves to get better jobs like managing the machines and such. That in itself raises the standard of living.

no, it doesn't increase the standard of living, it marginalizes those at the bottom of the food chain.

http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/Curse.html

Quote (J-Breakz)
ALL the people who were unemployed or worked in factories spent the majority of their time doing drugs or drinking. There's nothing wrong with that, atleast not in my opinion, but you can't expect someone to have a better job (or atleast even have a job) when you're spending most of your time just coppin a buzz.

have you ever talked to someone who feels it is necessary to drink/do drugs constantly? have you ever asked why they do it? it has to do with depression. when you are turned away from work for any reason (maybe the company was downsizing and had to let you go, may you are socially awkward and they decide you aren't good for business morale, maybe you made a mistake, work slow, etc.) that can likely cause you to go into severe depression. my father was let go from his job last year and has only been employed as a contract worker for, at the longest, just over a year, for the past 8 years or so since he was let go by Healthnet while they were downsizing. since losing his job at Healthnet he has become an alcoholic. he "catches a buzz", as you say, because he is depressed. i've actually had long, drawn out conversations with bums. every bum i've spoken to once held a decent job at one point, but something traumatic happened in relation to their work that lost them their job, house, etc., and now they have a fuck all attitude and drink. this is an effect of marginalization, and that is exactly what keeps people out of the workforce. if they were in the workforce, CEOs wouldn't be able to make as much as they do.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Okay look at Jay Z. Nas. Rakim. Kid Cudi. Dr. Dre. Look at people owning businesses and trying to make a name for themselves. Look at musicians who get regular play at venues. Or college students who get to major in what they wanna learn about.

and then look at the millions of MySpace musicians, some of whom are just as talented if not more so, that are working their asses off trying to make it but unable to make ends meet. look at my man Mnemonic, who is more successful than the majority of musicians and grinds constantly, but still doesn't own a house, and lives by staying with different friends at their apartments and makes just enough money to get him a bus pass to work and eat every day. then look at the students who did well in school, but on some technicality or other they were unable to gain acceptance to a university, and they are in a position where they won't qualify for financial aid because they have too much money, but they don't have enough money to get into a junior college either.

you are looking at success stories alone and not looking at the whole picture. that is the same reason Hugo Chavez is looked at as some evil dictator while the true story is that, while i do not at all support having a ruler of any kind, he is looked at by the poor people of Venezuela as their hero.

Quote (J-Breakz)
My point is ANYBODY can be a success if they work hard and provide something different and new that the people want.

...at the expense of others who were not creative enough, didn't time it right, weren't as lucky, etc. as the person that was successful.


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J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 17/Dec/09, 7:52 PM | Message # 63

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Quote (eboyd)
no, it doesn't increase the standard of living, it marginalizes those at the bottom of the food chain.

http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/Curse.html


It helps provide a product at a cheaper price for the consumers and forces the people with those old jobs to educate themselves in order to get a new job.

Quote (eboyd)
have you ever talked to someone who feels it is necessary to drink/do drugs constantly? have you ever asked why they do it? it has to do with depression. when you are turned away from work for any reason (maybe the company was downsizing and had to let you go, may you are socially awkward and they decide you aren't good for business morale, maybe you made a mistake, work slow, etc.) that can likely cause you to go into severe depression. my father was let go from his job last year and has only been employed as a contract worker for, at the longest, just over a year, for the past 8 years or so since he was let go by Healthnet while they were downsizing. since losing his job at Healthnet he has become an alcoholic. he "catches a buzz", as you say, because he is depressed. i've actually had long, drawn out conversations with bums. every bum i've spoken to once held a decent job at one point, but something traumatic happened in relation to their work that lost them their job, house, etc., and now they have a fuck all attitude and drink. this is an effect of marginalization, and that is exactly what keeps people out of the workforce. if they were in the workforce, CEOs wouldn't be able to make as much as they do.

Coppin a buzz actually. Ofcourse there are excuses as to why someone can be unemployed, but there has to be a time where you stop feeling sorry for yourself and try to make the best out of a tough situation. I'm not going to get into too much detail just out of respect of my family but I have members that were addicted to crack and unemployed. They have opportunities to get out of the hole they dug themselves in buy using the welfare money to go into school to become a nurse but nah they rather waste it away on drugs. They're not stupid, they know what they should do, but it's easier to not try and just feel sorry for yourself.

Quote (eboyd)
and then look at the millions of MySpace musicians, some of whom are just as talented if not more so, that are working their asses off trying to make it but unable to make ends meet. look at my man Mnemonic, who is more successful than the majority of musicians and grinds constantly, but still doesn't own a house, and lives by staying with different friends at their apartments and makes just enough money to get him a bus pass to work and eat every day.

Yes, it takes hard work to be successful. When you say he grinds constantly what do you mean exactly? Does he have a fan base? Does he have promoters behind him? Is he saving up money or taking out a loan for a manager? Is he sending out demo tapes to record labels? There's a lot of people out there that just think they can get big from just selling their CD's outside a record store. When you want to get serious about music then you have to create a business plan, either save up money or take out a loan, and execute it.

Quote (eboyd)
..at the expense of others who were not creative enough, didn't time it right, weren't as lucky, etc. as the person that was successful.

First of all, I wasn't talking about music, I was talking about everybody in a capitalist society but if someone wasn't creative enough and there still not successful then that kind of forces them to be more creative doesn't it? To provide a even better product for the people then what is out in the market today. If they didn't time it right... if they didn't time what right? Putting out there product? Then that's there fault. A successful person can't be punished because someone else didn't plan their LP enough.


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J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 17/Dec/09, 8:41 PM | Message # 64

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Quote (eboyd)
then look at the students who did well in school, but on some technicality or other they were unable to gain acceptance to a university

If they did well in school then there will be a college that will accept them, that's my point. Some colleges are very picky but provide requirements and recommendations to be able to be accepted in the university

Quote
and they are in a position where they won't qualify for financial aid because they have too much money, but they don't have enough money to get into a junior college either.

There are loans you can take out. Scholarships people can apply for. There's a lot of free money out there for the taking, it takes work to get it though.


livin life like some cheesy movie
eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 2:10 AM | Message # 65

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Quote (J-Breakz)
It helps provide a product at a cheaper price for the consumers and forces the people with those old jobs to educate themselves in order to get a new job.

...And those unable to educate themselves, for any reason whatsoever, maybe a minor mental or serious psychological impediment, get left in the dust.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Coppin a buzz actually. Ofcourse there are excuses as to why someone can be unemployed, but there has to be a time where you stop feeling sorry for yourself and try to make the best out of a tough situation. I'm not going to get into too much detail just out of respect of my family but I have members that were addicted to crack and unemployed. They have opportunities to get out of the hole they dug themselves in buy using the welfare money to go into school to become a nurse but nah they rather waste it away on drugs. They're not stupid, they know what they should do, but it's easier to not try and just feel sorry for yourself.

You are truly generalizing. This may be true for many, but not all. Now I can't predict how anarcho-capitalism would effect unemployment, but it is currently over 10% and, in fact, numbers show that with how bad this recession is (the worst since the Great Depression), regulation is actually largely responsible for keeping us away from unemployment numbers rivaling the GD (over 30%). Now, a 10% unemployment rate means millions unemployed. So are you trying to tell me that all of these unemployed people are simply too lazy to get a job and that's why they are losing their homes as well? You see, the problem here, like I_Guy said, is that all you care about are the economic factors. With there being actual human beings involved here, there are psychological factors involved as well, among other things. When society makes people feel like they can't, then they simply can't. Sure, there are strong individuals that overcome, but most people ARE NOT like that. My dad, for example, and many of my friends' parents, resort to things like drinking to solve their depression. It then becomes harder for him to go out and look for a job and he becomes less optimistic causing him to not seem like as good a candidate for a job.

Btw, what did you think of the bailouts?

Quote (J-Breakz)
Yes, it takes hard work to be successful. When you say he grinds constantly what do you mean exactly? Does he have a fan base?

We rocked a show with Percee P and more fans came out to see him than Perce.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Does he have promoters behind him?

Dude produces for the Living Legends, interned at Capitol Records back in rhe nineties under one of the most well-renowned A&R's in the history of the business, owns his own record company, and dropped his first wax (as a group with LA's Finest) on Fat Beats. Fuck promoters. He has an entire promotion team.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Is he saving up money or taking out a loan for a manager?

He's an independent artist. Fuck a manager. He's not stupid enough to let a major label screw him. He worked at one for years and knows the inner-workings. He cut out the middleman and, like I said, owns his own label.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Is he sending out demo tapes to record labels?

Fuck a label. He actually wants to attempt to make money rather than making them money and getting screwed out of it himself.

Quote (J-Breakz)
There's a lot of people out there that just think they can get big from just selling their CD's outside a record store.

Percee P did, but I digress. Street promotion is still a huge aspect, but he sells his shit online (MySpace, CDBaby, etc.) And at Fat Beats, plus he keeps himself busy doing shows where he also sells his CDs. Type "Mnemonic Radio" into google and you can see for yourself that he's not just BSing. I don't roll with dudes that aren't serious about their craft.

Quote (J-Breakz)
When you want to get serious about music then you have to create a business plan, either save up money or take out a loan, and execute it.

Dude, he owns Top Nation Records. It's as official as it gets.

Quote (J-Breakz)
First of all, I wasn't talking about music, I was talking about everybody in a capitalist society but if someone wasn't creative enough and there still not successful then that kind of forces them to be more creative doesn't it? To provide a even better product for the people then what is out in the market today. If they didn't time it right... if they didn't time what right? Putting out there product? Then that's there fault. A successful person can't be punished because someone else didn't plan their LP enough.

I wasn't talking about music either. If you are selling a product there are a lot of factors involved. Have you ever written or even read a business plan? I'm in the process of learning how to write one for RHHF now. It's not exactly something that even the common person can do. And even when someone writes an outstanding business plan, the business has more than a 50% chance of failing because there's a lot to running a successful business and some people just don't have it in them to do it. It's not about mental capacity, but rather about what type of person they are. Someone who gets taken advantage of a lot because he is "too nice" probably won't do well running a business with employees under him/her. Their managerial skills won't be up to par. As for not being "creative enough", that isn't something that someone can just learn. So if they can't be creative they get left in the dust? What if they don't have the charisma to work under someone and so, subsequently, they become "un-hirable" and when they do get hired they quickly get fired because "they are bringing down morale" or they just seem to smug to work with customers (even though they are just shy or introverted. And yes, I know people who have been in this situation)??? If your boss doesn't want to deal with you because you are unsociable, you are gone. That's that.

Quote (J-Breakz)
If they did well in school then there will be a college that will accept them, that's my point. Some colleges are very picky but provide requirements and recommendations to be able to be accepted in the university

You're in HS. Wtf do you know? I know people with nearly 4.0's who can't write an essay to save their lives and so they can't get into the USC's and Harvards, so they have to settle for state universities. Do you know how much easier it is to get a job when you can say "I graduated from USC" than "I graduated from SDSU"? Is it their fault that they can't write an essay? The problem is you assume that Aristotle's philosophy of tabula rasa is true. It is true that we are not destined for things like intelligence at birth, but we're far from being a blank slate either. Lucky for me, studying comes easy. I often find myself getting A's on tests I didn't even study for because I'm intelligent. Essays? My first drafts read like the works of William Shakespeare himself compared to the finished drafts of many of my peers, which include some very intelligent people. Other people don't fare so well. Is it their fault that they don't have the same capacity for intelligence/speed in gaining intelligence as I do? Should we penalize them because they are less able/reward me because I am more able?

Quote (J-Breakz)
There are loans you can take out. Scholarships people can apply for. There's a lot of free money out there for the taking, it takes work to get it though.

I have a $2000 per year scholarship for football (half of tuition), full pell grant, full loan, etc. The whole sha-bang. Because of my football scholarship I can't get an out-of-state fee waiver. I tried to apply for the Department of Rehabilitation in Mississippi who, if I qualified, would pay for my schooling, but since I didn't qualify (on some bogus terms) they didn't give me a dime. Even with all of the money I have I still owe $1000. I couldn't buy my textbooks all year either. I need to pay for the rest of last semester's fees before I even register for next semester. I will likely be required to move back home and try to find a school that I can transfer to and see if the CA Dept. of Rehab will take me back. Plus all the schools are currently going through tuition hikes like crazy so that may effect it even more. I know people who have it worse. I guarantee I_Guy can give you a similar story.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

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I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 4:34 AM | Message # 66

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Quote (J-Breakz)
There's a lot of people out there that just think they can get big from just selling their CD's outside a record store. When you want to get serious about music then you have to create a business plan, either save up money or take out a loan, and execute it.

What if that's not their way of doing things? I thought capitalism is about freedom? That doesn't sound like a case of freedom to me. It sounds more like a criteria that someone has to be forced into. Doesn't it?

Quote (J-Breakz)
but if someone wasn't creative enough and there still not successful then that kind of forces them to be more creative doesn't it?

That is rediculous. People can't just "be more creative." That is absurd. Creativity is not like doing calculations, it requires much more emotionally, intellecutally,intuitionally, and psychologically, all having to be in the right combination. Again, it's not that fucking simple.

Quote (J-Breakz)
To provide a even better product for the people then what is out in the market today. If they didn't time it right... if they didn't time what right? Putting out there product? Then that's there fault.

How is it their fault? What makes it their fault that "timing it" isn't within their capacity or ability or circumstance at that point in time. Logical steps please?

Quote (J-Breakz)
They have opportunities to get out of the hole they dug themselves in buy using the welfare money to go into school to become a nurse but nah they rather waste it away on drugs. They're not stupid, they know what they should do, but it's easier to not try and just feel sorry for yourself.

Dude, until you're out on your own you have no idea how hard it is. That's why I say you're naive.

Quote (eboyd)
. When society makes people feel like they can't, then they simply can't.

Exactly. People don't realize that the "mind" is all physical. So when things in the physical world come in contact with the "mind" there is a physical process going on. That is what makes it so difficult to change how you feel, and that is why it is so difficult to escape your emotions because they are the result of interacting physical processes in your brain. You can't simply shake the physical particles in your head loose and have them do something different. Every thing has a physical foundation, and everything physical affects everything else physical, even your "mind," because your "mind" is your brain. That is probably one of the biggest oversights that mankind has made, and one of the biggest realizations that we have yet to make. Because once you realize that "you" are not really in control of your psyche, your whole view on life and people changes. You realize that things aren't so damn easy. For all time our illusions decieve us.

Once your realize this, you lose the inclination to blame, and point fingers, and crucify people for mistakes or mishaps that they really had no control over. People are simply a chemical in the dish, reacting as a chemical would given it's physical properties. We don't blame potassium for igniting when it encounters oxygen. It is a chemical reaction. Humans beings are just complex chemicals on a colossal scale, undergoing chemical reactions. Once you see this and see past our illusions, you begin to see that things happen and there's really not much we can do to intervene no matter how much the illusion makes us believe otherswise. Our intervention if at all possible is extremely limited. Once you see this you well realize that people can't just work harder, or be more creative, or be more assertive. It requires the proper stimulants to activate the behavior needed to do better, and if those stimulants don't come along -the behavior won't come along and people won't get any better. The stimulants may be obvious or they may be obscure or subtle, but they all play a physical role in affecting our "mind."

So study some philosophy and psychology (and even science perhaps) J-Breaks.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 4:30 PM | Message # 67

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Quote (eboyd)
...And those unable to educate themselves, for any reason whatsoever, maybe a minor mental or serious psychological impediment, get left in the dust.

Well they can look for other jobs, Walmart offers a lot of low level jobs, he/she can be a cashier, etc.

Quote (eboyd)
You are truly generalizing. This may be true for many, but not all. Now I can't predict how anarcho-capitalism would effect unemployment, but it is currently over 10% and, in fact, numbers show that with how bad this recession is (the worst since the Great Depression), regulation is actually largely responsible for keeping us away from unemployment numbers rivaling the GD (over 30%). Now, a 10% unemployment rate means millions unemployed. So are you trying to tell me that all of these unemployed people are simply too lazy to get a job and that's why they are losing their homes as well? You see, the problem here, like I_Guy said, is that all you care about are the economic factors. With there being actual human beings involved here, there are psychological factors involved as well, among other things. When society makes people feel like they can't, then they simply can't. Sure, there are strong individuals that overcome, but most people ARE NOT like that. My dad, for example, and many of my friends' parents, resort to things like drinking to solve their depression. It then becomes harder for him to go out and look for a job and he becomes less optimistic causing him to not seem like as good a candidate for a job.

You're right I am generalizing and there are exceptions. It's just frustrating when you're in a bar and there's a guy telling you what the government needs to do for them while they're just sitting there and getting drunk. Regulation on certain companies provide more jobs but it raises the cost of the products being manufactured, so really it doesn't help the people. That's what FDR tried doing and he ended up extending the great depression for another 7 years. There can be many reasons for high unemployment and I don't think we can just assume it's capitalism's fault. One of them being that the government will pay you if your unemployed for a straight year... for doing nothing. I don't blame a person for choosing to do that, even though i wouldn't look up to the person either. I don't know what you mean about society making feel like you can't get a job, I figure if you're getting welfare from being unemployed then you're feeling like you can't. And about your Dad, hopefully he gets out of that funk and learns to love himself again, that's the key for being successful. But why should we hold society back from what it could be because of people with issues that should be dealt on their own? And also, how is providing a job for them even going to cure their depression? Cure to depression is something a lot more complicated that involves a lot more soul searching than how you put it.

Quote (I_Guy)

Dude, until you're out on your own you have no idea how hard it is. That's why I say you're naive.

You've never walked in my shoes, so shut up about the naive shit. Of course it's hard, but that doesn't give them an excuse to waste away their money on drugs when they could use it to get an education and work. It's been done before, it can be done again.

Quote (eboyd)
Btw, what did you think of the bailouts?

I don't agree with rewarding corporations for doing a horrible job in the market. Those CEO's that were helped in the bailout are the type of people that piss me off. Even in interviews you can see that they're one of those people that'd stab you in the back just to make a buck. The govn't should of just let the companies fail so they get what they deserve.

Quote (eboyd)
Dude produces for the Living Legends, interned at Capitol Records back in rhe nineties under one of the most well-renowned A&R's in the history of the business, owns his own record company, and dropped his first wax (as a group with LA's Finest) on Fat Beats. Fuck promoters. He has an entire promotion team.

Good for him, if he wants to make more money then I advise him to make more mainstream music mixed in with his regular stuff. What's the promotion team's budget?

If you want to make money off of music than you have to reach a large enough market. What's his usual sale figures?

Quote (eboyd)
Fuck a label. He actually wants to attempt to make money rather than making them money and getting screwed out of it himself.

It depends on the contract the label has the person sign. At least from what I've read. When an artist signs a label he/she doesn't have to spend the money or have the hassle of taking care of promotion and distribution so there are benefits to being signed to a label.

Quote (eboyd)
Percee P did, but I digress.

I knew you were gonna bring up something like that lol.

Quote (eboyd)
I wasn't talking about music either. If you are selling a product there are a lot of factors involved. Have you ever written or even read a business plan? I'm in the process of learning how to write one for RHHF now. It's not exactly something that even the common person can do. And even when someone writes an outstanding business plan, the business has more than a 50% chance of failing because there's a lot to running a successful business and some people just don't have it in them to do it.
Alright, my point was if you wanted to start a business it's very easy to do. And it is possible to make a lot of money from it. You're right there are people who work better when they're under somebody. And there are jobs like that and you're able to live comfortably with it. More so than the risky venture of starting your own business. You can just reap a lot more benefits when you start a business, which it should be like that.

Quote (eboyd)
You're in HS. Wtf do you know? I know people with nearly 4.0's who can't write an essay to save their lives and so they can't get into the USC's and Harvards, so they have to settle for state universities. Do you know how much easier it is to get a job when you can say "I graduated from USC" than "I graduated from SDSU"? Is it their fault that they can't write an essay? The problem is you assume that Aristotle's philosophy of tabula rasa is true. It is true that we are not destined for things like intelligence at birth, but we're far from being a blank slate either. Lucky for me, studying comes easy. I often find myself getting A's on tests I didn't even study for because I'm intelligent. Essays? My first drafts read like the works of William Shakespeare himself compared to the finished drafts of many of my peers, which include some very intelligent people. Other people don't fare so well. Is it their fault that they don't have the same capacity for intelligence/speed in gaining intelligence as I do? Should we penalize them because they are less able/reward me because I am more able?

I'm in community college going thru a program where I take specific courses and if I get atleast a 2.0 then I'm able to transfer to a UC school of my choice. And no, how are they being penalized? They can't make the requirements to get into a certain college. That's a bummer, but it's not the end of the world. There's other things you can do, hell you don't even need a high school degree to make a 6 figure salary.

Quote (eboyd)
I have a $2000 per year scholarship for football (half of tuition), full pell grant, full loan, etc. The whole sha-bang. Because of my football scholarship I can't get an out-of-state fee waiver. I tried to apply for the Department of Rehabilitation in Mississippi who, if I qualified, would pay for my schooling, but since I didn't qualify (on some bogus terms) they didn't give me a dime. Even with all of the money I have I still owe $1000. I couldn't buy my textbooks all year either. I need to pay for the rest of last semester's fees before I even register for next semester. I will likely be required to move back home and try to find a school that I can transfer to and see if the CA Dept. of Rehab will take me back. Plus all the schools are currently going through tuition hikes like crazy so that may effect it even more. I know people who have it worse. I guarantee I_Guy can give you a similar story.

Like I said I'm taking community college for two years cuz it's cheaper. There are alternatives. And like I said, college isn't for everyone and there's other ways you can live comfortably.


livin life like some cheesy movie
J-Breakz Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 4:36 PM | Message # 68

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And also, you never did respond to my findings in the other thread. Taiwan, known for the most part using a laizess-faire economic system, has the lowest poverty percentage in the world: .95%. Since the global financial crisis starting with United States in 2007, unemployment rate has risen to over 5.9%. But before it was below 4%. That clearly shows that my views how the economy should be truly do work, wouldn't you agree?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Economy


livin life like some cheesy movie
eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 5:11 PM | Message # 69

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Quote (J-Breakz)
Well they can look for other jobs, Walmart offers a lot of low level jobs, he/she can be a cashier, etc.

you just don't get it, and probably never will. Walmart practically pays their employees in dirt. the only person that a job at Walmart benefits is a student. don't even get me started on that snake of a company. if they are willing to put in the work to get a higher paying job but their mental capacity is holding them back, and their Walmart salary isn't making ends meet, is it not safe to say that they deserve a chance for a better paying job so that they can?

Quote (J-Breakz)
That's what FDR tried doing and he ended up extending the great depression for another 7 years.

that's speculation. i agree that it is likely that the GD would have ended earlier if he would have done a few things differently, but it was lasseiz faire economic policy during the Harding and Hoover administrations that led us into the GD in the first place, and we have evidence that shows it would have declined worse if we had continued to stay out of it (to be fair, politicians were getting involved illegally at the time as well though).

Quote (J-Breakz)
One of them being that the government will pay you if your unemployed for a straight year... for doing nothing.

yeah. that's the only thing allowing us to pay our rent right now. with all the expenses we have my mom's ~$40 an hour can only pay for the utilities and other expenses while my dad has to wait for his unemployment check every 2 weeks (which ALWAYS comes late btw) just so that we can pay the rent (albeit late. our rent is more than my mom's paycheck and my dad makes about half of what she does on unemployment) using both of my parents' monies combined to do so. my dad has gone on interviews, actively searched for jobs, etc., but no one is able to take him on as an employee and so he continues to be unemployed and it's been almost a year now.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Cure to depression is something a lot more complicated that involves a lot more soul searching than how you put it.

yes, but stressors are the main, possibly sole cause of depression and they exist within the realms of the 6 factors of wellness, of which one is occupational. unemployment is a HUGE contributory factor to depression because it creates insecurity.

Quote (J-Breakz)
I don't agree with rewarding corporations for doing a horrible job in the market. Those CEO's that were helped in the bailout are the type of people that piss me off. Even in interviews you can see that they're one of those people that'd stab you in the back just to make a buck. The govn't should of just let the companies fail so they get what they deserve.

fair enough. however, it's absurd to assume that the only corrupt corporations are the ones that are failing.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Good for him, if he wants to make more money then I advise him to make more mainstream music mixed in with his regular stuff.

1. he does, against my guidance, put sort of mainstream-ish tracks on his albums on occasion just to bring in mass appeal.
2. you're on this site and actually condoning that shit? do you actually care about hip hop and art in general? see, here's the problem. once again you are making everything about economics. this is art here. fuck economics. it's about good music and supporting it. if we just support artists like Mnemonic, they can build a career around hip hop.

Quote (J-Breakz)
What's the promotion team's budget?

idk. i don't ask him questions like that. i'll see him today and ask.

Quote (J-Breakz)
If you want to make money off of music than you have to reach a large enough market.

yes, and about 10% of the artists can do that while the rest, including many well known artists, get lost in the shuffle. you can't predict or formulate what people will like and respond to or not. Jeru should be much more well known than he ever was imo, but even with label promotion, for some reason, he never got there.

Quote (J-Breakz)
What's his usual sale figures?

he's sold, i think, like in the vicinity of 1,000 copies of each of his albums, plus he's making another $10,000 or so off shows, merch and people signed to his label and his job at a teen center which pays him peanuts. all in all, about $20,000 or so per year is my estimate.

Quote (J-Breakz)
It depends on the contract the label has the person sign.

ask anyone in the industry or who knows about the industry. contracts are deliberately created to screw people so that the label makes all the money and very few artists are smart enough to be able to work the contract in their favor. read up on Jurassic 5, GZA, Del, Immortal Technique, MF DOOM, Q-Tip, etc., and how all of them got screwed many of which got screwed more than once.

Quote (J-Breakz)
When an artist signs a label he/she doesn't have to spend the money or have the hassle of taking care of promotion and distribution so there are benefits to being signed to a label.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Alright, my point was if you wanted to start a business it's very easy to do. And it is possible to make a lot of money from it.

but it's not very easy to maintain a business and so not very many people can go about doing it.

Quote (J-Breakz)
I'm in community college going thru a program where I take specific courses and if I get atleast a 2.0 then I'm able to transfer to a UC school of my choice. And no, how are they being penalized? They can't make the requirements to get into a certain college. That's a bummer, but it's not the end of the world. There's other things you can do, hell you don't even need a high school degree to make a 6 figure salary.

yes, but it closes your chances to make good money.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Like I said I'm taking community college for two years cuz it's cheaper. There are alternatives. And like I said, college isn't for everyone and there's other ways you can live comfortably.

read above. that applies here as well.


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eboyd Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 5:15 PM | Message # 70

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And also, you never did respond to my findings in the other thread. Taiwan, known for the most part using a laizess-faire economic system, has the lowest poverty percentage in the world: .95%. Since the global financial crisis starting with United States in 2007, unemployment rate has risen to over 5.9%. But before it was below 4%. That clearly shows that my views how the economy should be truly do work, wouldn't you agree?

not necessarily. i'll respond later though. i need to go.


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J-Breakz Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 7:22 PM | Message # 71

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you just don't get it, and probably never will. Walmart practically pays their employees in dirt. the only person that a job at Walmart benefits is a student. don't even get me started on that snake of a company. if they are willing to put in the work to get a higher paying job but their mental capacity is holding them back, and their Walmart salary isn't making ends meet, is it not safe to say that they deserve a chance for a better paying job so that they can?

It was just a cheap, quick example. but honestly there are many jobs out there. If times really are that rough because of whatever reason then the person with the serious psychological impediment or whatever can move out in the midwest where the cost of living is a lot cheaper. There's also evidence saying if there was no minimum wage set by the government then the average minimum wage would be a lot higher.

Quote (eboyd)
that's speculation. i agree that it is likely that the GD would have ended earlier if he would have done a few things differently, but it was lasseiz faire economic policy during the Harding and Hoover administrations that led us into the GD in the first place, and we have evidence that shows it would have declined worse if we had continued to stay out of it (to be fair, politicians were getting involved illegally at the time as well though).

It was actually the statist economic policy that got the economy there. the Revenue Act of 1932 put America thru one of the largest tax increases in the country's history. Harding also put in place more taxes and tariffs and such.

Quote (eboyd)
yeah. that's the only thing allowing us to pay our rent right now. with all the expenses we have my mom's ~$40 an hour can only pay for the utilities and other expenses while my dad has to wait for his unemployment check every 2 weeks (which ALWAYS comes late btw) just so that we can pay the rent (albeit late. our rent is more than my mom's paycheck and my dad makes about half of what she does on unemployment) using both of my parents' monies combined to do so. my dad has gone on interviews, actively searched for jobs, etc., but no one is able to take him on as an employee and so he continues to be unemployed and it's been almost a year now.

He needs to stop drinking and try to find other ways to solve his depression. I'm sure him being unemployed is a huge stress to your mom also. Your dad and other workers are marketing their services when they go on interviews with employers. He needs to prove that he is better than all the other workers out there for such and such reason. But yeah, like I said before I doubt him getting a job would solve his depression, it takes a lot more soul searching than that.

Quote (eboyd)
yes, but stressors are the main, possibly sole cause of depression and they exist within the realms of the 6 factors of wellness, of which one is occupational. unemployment is a HUGE contributory factor to depression because it creates insecurity.

Studies have shown that even after a person is employed chances are he/she will still have feelings of depression. You can't put the blame completely on unemployment, depression and insecurity is strictly how YOU perceive yourself and being financially successful will not fix it. That's why they say money doesn't buy happiness. Anyways, there are steps he can take which can help him out of depression.

http://www.unemploymentdepression.com/

best of luck to your father.

Quote (eboyd)
fair enough. however, it's absurd to assume that the only corrupt corporations are the ones that are failing.

I was talking about the CEO's of GM, Ford, etc. There's a bunch of different reasons why there are corporations failing and I don't think the answer is to use the people's money to help them. It's basically stealing. That's why there's people that have the idea of "Tyranny of the Majority" because even though the majority of people thought that it would be a good idea to bail out failing corporations, they have no right to take the money from people who disagree.

Quote (eboyd)
2. you're on this site and actually condoning that shit? do you actually care about hip hop and art in general? see, here's the problem. once again you are making everything about economics. this is art here. fuck economics. it's about good music and supporting it. if we just support artists like Mnemonic, they can build a career around hip hop.

It depends what you're goals are in making music. If your making music strictly for the money then I encourage artists to make music that would attract a majority of listeners. However, if your making music for the same reason I am, which is to make art. Then I think you shouldn't worry much about making money off of it. If artists are providing a product that I think is good (in other words making good art) then I support it.

Quote (eboyd)
you can't predict or formulate what people will like and respond to or not.

It depends on marketing research and how good you or your team is at it.

Quote (eboyd)
he's sold, i think, like in the vicinity of 1,000 copies of each of his albums, plus he's making another $10,000 or so off shows, merch and people signed to his label and his job at a teen center which pays him peanuts. all in all, about $20,000 or so per year is my estimate.

That's a shame, one thousand copies is not that much. What makes his music different than other artists? I heard some of his stuff, it's okay, nothing that attracts me. And I'm saying that out of honesty, not for the sake of this debate I assure you. Maybe I haven't heard enough of his stuff.

Quote (eboyd)
ask anyone in the industry or who knows about the industry. contracts are deliberately created to screw people so that the label makes all the money and very few artists are smart enough to be able to work the contract in their favor. read up on Jurassic 5, GZA, Del, Immortal Technique, MF DOOM, Q-Tip, etc., and how all of them got screwed many of which got screwed more than once.

That's why you hire a lawyer. I remember watching an interview where RZA talked about taking out a loan to hire a music lawyer when Loud records was signing Wutang Clan. If your music is good enough record labels are willing to make compromises to make money off of you. Warner Bros. did this with Prince, OM records did this with People Under the Stairs, etc.

Quote (eboyd)
but it's not very easy to maintain a business and so not very many people can go about doing it.

I've stated that. some people aren't businessmen and are best suited working under a boss. There are many jobs where you can live comfortably while you work under a boss. Companies need workers.

Quote (eboyd)
yes, but it closes your chances to make good money.

It depends what you mean by good money. Yes, college does open up a lot of doors, but there are many people out there who are working and don't have a college degree. I've talk to a few of them and they said if they did it all over again they would choose not to go to college again.


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I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 7:46 PM | Message # 72

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If times really are that rough because of whatever reason then the person with the serious psychological impediment or whatever can move out in the midwest where the cost of living is a lot cheaper.

Yeah, if they can afford it.

Quote (J-Breakz)
That's why you hire a lawyer.

Yeah, if they can afford it.

Quote (J-Breakz)
He needs to stop drinking and try to find other ways to solve his depression. I'm sure him being unemployed is a huge stress to your mom also. Your dad and other workers are marketing their services when they go on interviews with employers. He needs to prove that he is better than all the other workers out there for such and such reason. But yeah, like I said before I doubt him getting a job would solve his depression, it takes a lot more soul searching than that.

Did you not READ what I posted.

Quote (I_Guy)
Exactly. People don't realize that the "mind" is all physical. So when things in the physical world come in contact with the "mind" there is a physical process going on. That is what makes it so difficult to change how you feel, and that is why it is so difficult to escape your emotions because they are the result of interacting physical processes in your brain. You can't simply shake the physical particles in your head loose and have them do something different. Every thing has a physical foundation, and everything physical affects everything else physical, even your "mind," because your "mind" is your brain. That is probably one of the biggest oversights that mankind has made, and one of the biggest realizations that we have yet to make. Because once you realize that "you" are not really in control of your psyche, your whole view on life and people changes. You realize that things aren't so damn easy. For all time our illusions decieve us.
Once your realize this, you lose the inclination to blame, and point fingers, and crucify people for mistakes or mishaps that they really had no control over. People are simply a chemical in the dish, reacting as a chemical would given it's physical properties. We don't blame potassium for igniting when it encounters oxygen. It is a chemical reaction. Humans beings are just complex chemicals on a colossal scale, undergoing chemical reactions. Once you see this and see past our illusions, you begin to see that things happen and there's really not much we can do to intervene no matter how much the illusion makes us believe otherswise. Our intervention if at all possible is extremely limited. Once you see this you well realize that people can't just work harder, or be more creative, or be more assertive. It requires the proper stimulants to activate the behavior needed to do better, and if those stimulants don't come along -the behavior won't come along and people won't get any better. The stimulants may be obvious or they may be obscure or subtle, but they all play a physical role in affecting our "mind."

What I posted answers all the bullshit responses you give that state that people "should have" "should do" "could do" "can do" "needs to do." If you understand what I posted then you realize that all this bullshit talk is nothing but the foolishly mistaken mentality that the world suffers from, -thinking that people are purely sovereign creatures of the universe in complete control of their destiny, if only they work harder, or get better, or time it better, or whatever the fuck. All of this talk of what people should/could/need/ to do is nonesense, because as I said it is a complex physical process of response and stimulus. If no motivation exists, and no motivation stimuli becomes available, then the motivation will not be found.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 8:03 PM | Message # 73

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Did you not READ what I posted.

I did not, I'm growing tired of you're sense superiority over people. I understand that debates can get heated which is why I have a high tolerance to attitudes during them (and why I don't blame eboyd when he gets heated, because the same happens with me). But I have noticed you hold the attitude in other threads and I feel that people like that should not be taken seriously. I feel I have enough evidence to support my views and am just responding to comments that are directed towards me. If you think I'm an idiot, then simply don't pay attention to my posts.

And I also believe that people should try to always find ways to improve themselves and nobody is perfect. I don't believe I'm perfect but I always try to be happy with the way I'm living.

If you want to have a debate with me about my views, which obviously you do because you keep on responding to my posts, then do so while maintaining a certain amount of respect. Thank you.


livin life like some cheesy movie

Message edited by J-Breakz - Friday, 18/Dec/09, 8:04 PM
I_Guy Date: Friday, 18/Dec/09, 8:24 PM | Message # 74

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I did not, I'm growing tired of you're sense superiority over people.

I'd like a better explanation of the "superiority" you think I think I have.

Quote (J-Breakz)
And I also believe that people should try to always find ways to improve themselves

And if the proper stimulants don't come along then it becomes difficult for people to engage in such an endeavor.

Quote (J-Breakz)
nobody is perfect.

But you debate with the implication that all people should be perfect. Because when ever you say a person should/could/can do this, you neglect the fact that they are not perfect and simply can't just do something you suggest. Because if a person would have done in life everything that you suggest, then their actions would be perfect by the standard you set. By your standard, they would be a perfect business person. But you say that people can't be perfect, -EXACTLY. And that is why all your suggestions simply become lousy lame ass excuses. Offering suggestions for what people should/could/can do does not mean that it is possible at all, or even conceivable.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Thank you.

Is this an attempt to be emphatically respectful?


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
eboyd Date: Saturday, 19/Dec/09, 2:43 AM | Message # 75

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It was just a cheap, quick example. but honestly there are many jobs out there. If times really are that rough because of whatever reason then the person with the serious psychological impediment or whatever can move out in the midwest where the cost of living is a lot cheaper. There's also evidence saying if there was no minimum wage set by the government then the average minimum wage would be a lot higher.

how does that even make sense???? so when a MINIMUM wage is set, people are more likely to pay their workers that wage just because they know that it is ok to pay that low???? is this the logic here? please explain this to me because it doesn't make sense imo.

Quote (J-Breakz)
It was actually the statist economic policy that got the economy there. the Revenue Act of 1932 put America thru one of the largest tax increases in the country's history. Harding also put in place more taxes and tariffs and such.

i'll look this up and possibly reply to this later.

Quote (J-Breakz)
He needs to stop drinking and try to find other ways to solve his depression. I'm sure him being unemployed is a huge stress to your mom also. Your dad and other workers are marketing their services when they go on interviews with employers. He needs to prove that he is better than all the other workers out there for such and such reason. But yeah, like I said before I doubt him getting a job would solve his depression, it takes a lot more soul searching than that.

he just can't get a job because of 1. the economy and 2. the fact that while he has a experience, is skilled, etc., he has no degree because he went to the army part way through earning his AA through Chaffey and when he got back he began working as a nurse, then had a change of career goals and became a computer tech. he's highly skilled and experienced, but because he doesn't have that degree, other people who are younger and less experienced get hired over him.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Studies have shown that even after a person is employed chances are he/she will still have feelings of depression. You can't put the blame completely on unemployment, depression and insecurity is strictly how YOU perceive yourself and being financially successful will not fix it. That's why they say money doesn't buy happiness. Anyways, there are steps he can take which can help him out of depression.

http://www.unemploymentdepression.com/

best of luck to your father.

once again, occupational wellness is a big factor. i've studied this in order to become a personal trainer. limiting stressors is one of the most important things involved in wellness and subsequently personal training. stressors are found within the 6 factors of wellness -- mental, physical, social, spiritual, educational, and occupational. we need to limit stressors equally in each. so no, getting a job won't solve it, but it is a huge factor and a first step towards limiting stressors, ridding yourself of depression and leading a wholesome life.

Quote (J-Breakz)
I was talking about the CEO's of GM, Ford, etc. There's a bunch of different reasons why there are corporations failing and I don't think the answer is to use the people's money to help them. It's basically stealing.

i agree.

Quote (J-Breakz)
That's why there's people that have the idea of "Tyranny of the Majority" because even though the majority of people thought that it would be a good idea to bail out failing corporations, they have no right to take the money from people who disagree.

wait, what? what majority? you mean the majority of politicians? i don't personally know a single person who condoned the bailouts. everyone i've spoken to is pissed and most blame the political party they are opposed to for the bailouts. this is why i not only am against corporations (aka the hand behind the veil ;) ) but the idea of a government as well.

Quote (J-Breakz)
It depends what you're goals are in making music. If your making music strictly for the money then I encourage artists to make music that would attract a majority of listeners. However, if your making music for the same reason I am, which is to make art. Then I think you shouldn't worry much about making money off of it. If artists are providing a product that I think is good (in other words making good art) then I support it.

and this is exactly why music is in the position it is in today. artists make music for the sake of art but make no money off of it and so these types of musicians are dying in numbers or being shoved to the back, while those willing to conform to a bullshit formula to make money are emerging. i don't feel that artful music should become niche. we need a balance on the airwaves. capitalism is all about exploiting a market so that the cheapest product that can be mass produced the easiest becomes the most prevalent. capitalism should be abandoned, at the very least, for things like art.

Quote (J-Breakz)
It depends on marketing research and how good you or your team is at it.

no, it doesn't. it's just like with stock. studies were done that had some of the leading stock analysts facing off against apes to see who picked stocks that would make them more money and the apes won:

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007....s-again

Quote (J-Breakz)
That's a shame, one thousand copies is not that much. What makes his music different than other artists? I heard some of his stuff, it's okay, nothing that attracts me. And I'm saying that out of honesty, not for the sake of this debate I assure you. Maybe I haven't heard enough of his stuff.

i spoke to him today. with all of his albums put together (his two solo projects, his duo with Mike Mictlan, and his group project) he's sold over 10,000 and over 5,000 with "Mnemonic Radio" alone. that is actually pretty damn good. the average underground hip hop artist sells far less. even the best indie hip hop artists sell short of 100,000 and we're talking albums like "Madvillainy".

Quote (J-Breakz)
That's why you hire a lawyer. I remember watching an interview where RZA talked about taking out a loan to hire a music lawyer when Loud records was signing Wutang Clan. If your music is good enough record labels are willing to make compromises to make money off of you. Warner Bros. did this with Prince, OM records did this with People Under the Stairs, etc.

like I_Guy said, that's not an option for a lot of people. it's just like with my family. we are trying to claim bankruptcy but we can't afford to pay the attorney.

Quote (J-Breakz)
I've stated that. some people aren't businessmen and are best suited working under a boss. There are many jobs where you can live comfortably while you work under a boss. Companies need workers.

see, but that is the problem. why does it need to be either own a business or work for a boss. people shouldn't have to have a boss. in a capitalist society, collectives are rare because their structure is not well-suited for a capitalist society. there is also little incentive for people to start collectives.

Quote (J-Breakz)
It depends what you mean by good money. Yes, college does open up a lot of doors, but there are many people out there who are working and don't have a college degree. I've talk to a few of them and they said if they did it all over again they would choose not to go to college again.

what i mean is enough money to maintain a house and be comfortable. my dad doesn't have a degree. he has a very hard time getting a job because of his lack of experience and so he often is unemployed for 2 years before getting another job, but when he is working, he makes upwards of $100,000 a year.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

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