Workers Self-Management In Argentina !!
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Menace |
Date: Wednesday, 25/Feb/09, 10:22 PM | Message # 16 |
Heads
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federations of workers associations for production will handle expenditure if its needed federations of independent Communes will handle territorial organization and societies and clubs to meet all other needs (such as arts, amusement). This is one possible framework this kind of framework was used from 1936 till 1939 by the Spanish Anarchists unfortunately they were crushed by the Communists and Spanish Fascists backed by Italy and Germany but in a possible framework all would be based on self-management, free association, free federation and self-organization from the bottom up. Government is replaced by anarchy, a network of free associations and communities co-operating as equals it could be classified as organization of society on a voluntary and cooperative basis without force or compulsion too but voluntarism is too idealistic.
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J-Breakz |
Date: Wednesday, 25/Feb/09, 10:27 PM | Message # 17 |
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so basically a huge main union, or seperate smaller unions fund different businesses, where do they get the funds exactly?
livin life like some cheesy movie
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Menace |
Date: Wednesday, 25/Feb/09, 10:44 PM | Message # 18 |
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Quote (J-Breakz) so basically a huge main union, or seperate smaller unions fund different businesses, where do they get the funds exactly? as the wealth is controlled by the society as a whole the funding will come from the society or from anyone who wants to invest in us but respect our economical model and you clearly fall for a capitalist myth my friend CAPITALISM or any economic system doesn't help human evolution or human expenditure you can't justify capitalism as you can't justify fascism cause fascism in her short rule in Europe raised standard living very high but can you justify a totalitarian ideology like fascism ?? well no
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J-Breakz |
Date: Wednesday, 25/Feb/09, 11:58 PM | Message # 19 |
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I'm sorry u need to explain more clearly, becuz I don't quite understand... so business get their funding strictly through donations? To me it just doesn't make sense how a society can thrive with a system like this...
livin life like some cheesy movie
Message edited by J-Breakz - Thursday, 26/Feb/09, 0:02 AM
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Menace |
Date: Thursday, 26/Feb/09, 11:43 AM | Message # 20 |
Heads
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Quote (J-Breakz) I'm sorry u need to explain more clearly, becuz I don't quite understand... so business get their funding strictly through donations? To me it just doesn't make sense how a society can thrive with a system like this... donations from who ?? the federation will get funding from the syndicates that sell products and services and in general in such society wasted LAND will not exists in the current system some farmers actually get paid *not* to grow crops supply and demand reduces the supply of crops and it affects how much we pay at the grocery store in turn putting extra coin in active farmers pockets. non active farmers or land owners are currently being paid 1.8 BILLION dollars a year in the US to sit on their ass because they own the deed to some land and the money comes right from your pocket.
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J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 1:26 PM | Message # 21 |
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Quote (Menace) donations from who ?? the federation will get funding from the syndicates that sell products and services so they're getting taxed pretty much? they, being the businesses (or syndicates) that sell the products and/or services. Quote and in general in such society wasted LAND will not exists in the current system some farmers actually get paid *not* to grow crops supply and demand reduces the supply of crops and it affects how much we pay at the grocery store in turn putting extra coin in active farmers pockets. non active farmers or land owners are currently being paid 1.8 BILLION dollars a year in the US to sit on their ass because they own the deed to some land and the money comes right from your pocket. Yeah, I know about that and the thinking behind it is so dumb and wasteful I don't even know what to say. But that's what you get when government is involved in the economy.
livin life like some cheesy movie
Message edited by J-Breakz - Friday, 27/Feb/09, 1:27 PM
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Menace |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 1:30 PM | Message # 22 |
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Quote (J-Breakz) so they're getting taxed pretty much? they ain't getting taxed the federation is them the collective of syndicates they decide how much they will spend and where they will spend it nobody forces them everybody decides and gives his vote and his opinion Quote (J-Breakz) Yeah, I know about that and the thinking behind it is so dumb and wasteful I don't even know what to say. But that's what you get when government is involved in the economy. lol its an effect of capitalism don't deny it man the government uses the negative effects of capitalism in their interest
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J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 1:45 PM | Message # 23 |
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Quote (Menace) they ain't getting taxed the federation is them the collective of syndicates they decide how much they will spend and where they will spend it nobody forces them everybody decides and gives his vote and his opinion Would they spend any of that money on defense? Like weapons and all that? What if Russia or somebody wants to take over the land? The reason why I'm asking this is because it seems to me that a government like institution would come out of this and it wouldn't really be anarchism. Quote (Menace) lol its an effect of capitalism don't deny it man the government uses the negative effects of capitalism in their interest Also, you're wrong. If our constitution was much more clear or we lived in an anarcho-capitalist society then government wouldn't be involved at all and the consumers would be the one to benefit from that.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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Menace |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 1:59 PM | Message # 24 |
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Quote (J-Breakz) Would they spend any of that money on defense? Like weapons and all that? What if Russia or somebody wants to take over the land? The reason why I'm asking this is because it seems to me that a government like institution would come out of this and it wouldn't really be anarchism. any anarchist society of any kind will not be taken over by power hungry people cause we already gained our freedom by overthrowing the actual power mongrels Moreover, it also ignores fact that people in an anarchist society would have gained their freedom by overthrowing every existing and would-be thug who had or desired power over others. They would have defended that freedom against those who desired to re-impose it. They would have organized themselves to manage their own affairs and, therefore, to abolish all hierarchical power. And we are to believe that these people, after struggling to become free, would quietly let a new set of thugs impose themselves? As Kropotkin argued: "The only way in which a state of Anarchy can be obtained is for each man [or woman] who is oppressed to act as if he [or she] were at liberty, in defiance of all authority to the contrary . . . In practical fact, territorial extension is necessary to ensure permanency to any given individual revolution. In speaking of the Revolution, we signify the aggregate of so many successful individual and group revolts as will enable every person within the revolutionised territory to act in perfect freedom . . . without having to constantly dread the prevention or the vengeance of an opposing power upholding the former system . . . Under these circumstance it is obvious that any visible reprisal could and would be met by a resumption of the same revolutionary action on the part of the individuals or groups affected, and that the maintenance of a state of Anarchy in this manner would be far easier than the gaining of a state of Anarchy by the same methods and in the face of hitherto unshaken opposition . . . They have it in their power to apply a prompt check by boycotting such a person and refusing to help him with their labour or to willing supply him with any articles in their possession. They have it in their power to use force against him. They have these powers individually as well as collectively. Being either past rebels who have been inspired with the spirit of liberty, or else habituated to enjoy freedom from their infancy, they are hardly to rest passive in view of what they feel to be wrong." about the defense issue any anarchist society of any kind will defend itself in a non-statist fashion if its needed funding will go into defense . The actual defense is organized in a libertarian manner, based on federations of free communes and workers' councils and incorporating self-managed workers' militias. This was exactly what the CNT-FAI did in 1936 to resist Franco's fascists. The militia bodies that were actually formed by the CNT in the revolution were internally self-governing, not hierarchical. Each militia column was administered by its own "war committee," made up of elected delegates, which in turn sent delegates to co-ordinate action on a specific front. Similarly, the Makhnovists during the Russian Revolution also organized in a democratic manner, subject to the decisions of the local workers' councils and their congresses.
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Menace |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:14 PM | Message # 25 |
Heads
Posts: 6764
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and wait how the anarcho-capitalist society will defend itself ?? if nothing is organized in the anarcho-syndicalist manner ?? private armies will be set in place ?? private armies are very dangerous to freedom
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eboyd |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:15 PM | Message # 26 |
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Capitalism creates hierarchy which would create a government too. I don't get how Participatory Economics would create hierarchy. The only problem I see is that it relies on the people being strong and not allowing anyone to take the power from the majority, and I say this because these people WILL arise. They may come in the form of societal leaders, like public speakers or other local celebrities, but the idea is that the society, though it will be still working together in general, it will be broken into small societies. In other words, power will be taken from the state and given to the people of a smaller communities. Our society would be governed by the people, working for the smaller community, and the communities will together work to make sure they are all moving in the right direction. That way, if there is corruption it will only infect one small community and the rest of the communities surrounding, seeing that, will come to dissolve the problem before it spreads. I see how that could become a hierarchal government, but it is a lot less likely for that to happen than in this idea of anarcho-capitalism AKA corporatocracy or any other society.
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J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:33 PM | Message # 27 |
Heads
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Quote (Menace) and wait how the anarcho-capitalist society will defend itself ?? if nothing is organized in the anarcho-syndicalist manner ?? private armies will be set in place ?? private armies are very dangerous to freedom http://www.strike-the-root.com/71/awuku/awuku4.html Yes private armies would be set in place, however, they aren't as dangerous as people think they are. Competition would keep private defense services from doing anything dangerous. Also, I would like to state after watching that video you posted on Participatory Economics that there is very little to no individual freedom at all in a "libertarian"-socialist society. Equality, yes, but not freedom.
livin life like some cheesy movie
Message edited by J-Breakz - Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:34 PM
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Menace |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:48 PM | Message # 28 |
Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (J-Breakz) Also, I would like to state after watching that video you posted on Participatory Economics that there is very little to no individual freedom at all in a "libertarian"-socialist society. Equality, yes, but not freedom no individual freedom ?? are u crazy ?? the base of that ideology is about stressing individual freedom to all extents you don't know the definition of individual freedom my friend the individual is free to do what ever he wants he is not obligated to join a commune or a syndicate nobody restricts nothing in the current system the STATE or capitalism never gave our rights they stated our rights but they never gave them we took them in workers movements in civil rights movements and such and even tribal cultures indicate that communalism defends individuality as Howard Zinn presents : No laws and ordinances, sheriffs and constables, judges and juries, or courts or jails -- the apparatus of authority in European societies -- were to be found in the north-east woodlands prior to European arrival. Yet boundaries of acceptable behavior were firmly set. Though priding themselves on the autonomous individual, the Iroquois maintained a strict sense of right and wrong". Living in a non-hierarchical society directly individuality is on the top
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eboyd |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:54 PM | Message # 29 |
Heads
Posts: 13145
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The only freedom that people won't have is the freedom to create a hierarchy.
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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
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J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 27/Feb/09, 2:55 PM | Message # 30 |
Heads
Posts: 2162
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As you said in order for that system to work you need a democracy... a democracy always exploits the minority.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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