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Universal Healthcare
J-Breakz Date: Monday, 04/Jan/10, 7:09 PM | Message # 1

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http://copiousdissent.blogspot.com/2007....is.html

Canadian Universal Healthcare is a Miserable Failure and why Michael Moore and his Film, “Sicko” are Wrong
Posted In: Healthcare , Liberals , Michael Moore . By Devil's Advocate

If you want to find the real story of Canada’s failed Universal Healthcare system, look no further than America’s boarder cities. The Buffalo News just reported a story about, Lindsay McCreith, a 66 year-old Canadian retired auto body shop owner. This story, accurately reported by Henry L. Davis, demonstrates why Michael Moore’s new propaganda film, “Sicko” is patently misleading.

McCreith experienced seizures on Jan. 2, 2006, and was diagnosed with a benign tumor based on a CT scan. A physician at a Canadian hospital declined to order an MRI to rule out a malignancy. McCreith’s family doctor agreed to request the more-definitive scan, but McCreith was told he would have to wait over four months for the appointment.

According to McCreith, had he been patient and followed the Canadian system, he would have died. Instead, McCreith went to Buffalo to receive treatment the very next day. In Buffalo, he was told he had a malignant tumor, which required a biopsy. After trying the Canadian system again, he was told they would not allow the biopsy for another three months. McCreith, having a good friend die waiting for heart surgery, decided to see if the American private system could save his life. It did just that.

If you watched Michael Moore’s film, “Sicko” you will notice the irony immediately. Moore highlighted the fact that before care could be provided to patients, doctors had to deal with third-party insurance companies. Moore reasoned that because those third-party insurance companies care about profit, the system itself is flaw. Well, in this case, the third-party is the Canadian Government, and that third-party was going to allow a retired auto body shop owner die.

Evidently, this long waiting period is not uncommon. For instance, patients in Ontario wait an average of 22 weeks for cataract surgery and 34 weeks for a hip replacement, according to statistics from the Ontario Ministry of Health. Cities like Cleveland and Buffalo seem to be booming in those areas of medical care with Canadians coming across the boarder for treatment. If the Democrats running in the 2008 Presidential Election want a Universal Healthcare System, where are the Canadians going to go for treatment?

Instead of just accepting Canada’s Big Government policies, McCreith is going to take corrective action. McCreith’s will challenge the Canadian system in Court. He asserts that Ontario’s ban on private health insurance and private billing by physicians infringes on his constitutional right to life, liberty and security. McCreith followed up by demonstrating a clear understanding of economics: “I was in the auto body shop business,” he said. “If I gave you an appointment four months away, you would go somewhere else. Why should health care be any different?”


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eboyd Date: Monday, 04/Jan/10, 8:22 PM | Message # 2

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Michael Moore's an idiot. i don't pay attention to him. idk what region of Canada this was in, but i have family in Canada that have had serious health issues and they told me that Canadian health care is great. on the same token, i know people who have died because they couldn't afford good enough health care which in turn lead them to have to go to a shitty doctor who misdiagnosed their condition. later we found that they could have survived had they gotten better care. this happened to my grandfather. neither system is perfect. it's about finding which one is ideologically the most sound and making adjustments to assure that it is a close to perfect as possible. when you eliminate economics from the equation (as this is about the welfare of humans, not a fucking paycheck) you are beginning with the most ideal system.

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J-Breakz Date: Monday, 04/Jan/10, 8:30 PM | Message # 3

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Quote (eboyd)
you are beginning with the most ideal system.

I disagree.


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Menace Date: Monday, 04/Jan/10, 8:45 PM | Message # 4

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We need a universal health care system based upon a socialized idea . Not like these ones now days . Each hospital or health center would be autonomous and self managed but linked in a federation with the others, allowing resources to be shared as and when required while allowing the health service to adjust to local needs and requirements as quickly as possible. . If everything is decentralized and participatory then health care will be based upon mutual aid so neither economic nor social inefficiencies will occur . Now days we see the inefficiency of both the private and state sector . Both of them can't calculate the social and humane aspect of this problem neither bureaucrats , CEO's or the market itself .

I_Guy Date: Tuesday, 05/Jan/10, 5:11 PM | Message # 5

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That article is appealing to a fallacy. Beings the writer makes the Canadian system look like it doesn't work, then the American system is best by default. Terrible argument.

We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Tuesday, 05/Jan/10, 5:19 PM | Message # 6

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Quote (I_Guy)
That article is appealing to a fallacy. Beings the writer makes the Canadian system look like it doesn't work, then the American system is best by default. Terrible argument.

It's not an article, it's a blog. It was just interesting to me because all I hear over here is how people would have to wait a long time to get treated for injuries and such but I never got to hear any actual stories about it (not that I ever did really search for stories, and I just stumbled on this and thought it was interesting). And I don't know one person that would think the American Health Care system is perfect, there's too much government regulation allowing businesses to drive up the price of services and products.


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eboyd Date: Wednesday, 06/Jan/10, 7:28 AM | Message # 7

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Quote (J-Breakz)
there's too much government regulation allowing businesses to drive up the price of services and products.

i agree. we shouldn't have any government regulation. we should have society regulating health care to assure everyone gets treated, the people who most need medical attention the quickest receiving priority. :)


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J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 06/Jan/10, 2:37 PM | Message # 8

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Quote (eboyd)
we should have society regulating health care to assure everyone gets treated, the people who most need medical attention the quickest receiving priority. :)

yeah i don't like regulation.


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eboyd Date: Wednesday, 06/Jan/10, 5:08 PM | Message # 9

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yeah i don't like regulation.

i know :D regulation needs to occur, however, in my opinion, to assure that people don't overstep their bounds. as i've said before, when one person's freedom impedes on another person's freedom, that isn't true freedom. that is an abuse of freedom. regulation prevents abuses of freedom.


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I_Guy Date: Wednesday, 06/Jan/10, 5:17 PM | Message # 10

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Come on, we've been over this. There used to be NO regulation. Once upon a time it truly was a completely free market. But soon enough people realized that such a system doesn't work due to corruption, thus proving all the way back then that capitalism is a failed system. So the government begins regulating to control the corruption. Now people sit around and complain about regulation as if it could ever be otherwise and still work. What a fantasy.

Sure people can sit around and say, "no the corruption was due to corrupt men, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with capitalism." But yes it does, capitalism breeds such men. It is an inherent flaw. You would have to change the entire culture and behavior of human beings for capitalism to ever MAYBE work.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 06/Jan/10, 7:25 PM | Message # 11

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Quote (eboyd)
i know :D regulation needs to occur, however, in my opinion, to assure that people don't overstep their bounds. as i've said before, when one person's freedom impedes on another person's freedom, that isn't true freedom. that is an abuse of freedom. regulation prevents abuses of freedom.

Right to life is a negative right, meaning that I can't kill you or else i'm violating ur right. However, you don't have a right to take someone else's freedoms and coerce them in helping you when you hurt yourself. I have a right to property in America but that doesn't give claim on anyone else's time, labor, or resources. Someone has to provide health care, whether that be higher taxes, insurance mandates, health care rationing, or intrusive regulations, so a right to health care in the name of a right to life leaves a society less free.


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J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 06/Jan/10, 7:27 PM | Message # 12

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Quote (I_Guy)
Come on, we've been over this. There used to be NO regulation. Once upon a time it truly was a completely free market. But soon enough people realized that such a system doesn't work due to corruption, thus proving all the way back then that capitalism is a failed system.

When have we ever reached that conclusion?


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eboyd Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 1:34 AM | Message # 13

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Quote (J-Breakz)
Someone has to provide health care, whether that be higher taxes, insurance mandates, health care rationing, or intrusive regulations, so a right to health care in the name of a right to life leaves a society less free.

yes, but if and when our health care system becomes one based on participatory economics, aka when it is a cooperative industry, rather than a competitive one, it will be available to everybody at the lowest possible price. i'm not talking about government socialized health care. i agree that this will lead to problems. however, i must say that our current system is making it impossible or VERY hard for certain people to obtain health care because they cannot afford it, and the health care that they might be able to afford is not very good. a competitive market makes it so that certain people get shitty health care plans. a cooperative market (speaking on a B2B level) will assure that all health care plans are as good as they can possibly be. how this will work at the individual level is thus: a person will enter the health care field on a voluntary basis with a specific hospital or medical office and through that medical office they will be educated, also on a voluntary basis, though they will be urged to do so and cannot take on certain tasks if they do not further their education. for example, someone who never learned to do surgery will not be allowed to do surgery. they will be encouraged to go all the way through and educate themselves to the equivalent of what a doctor does now, but it is obvious that not everyone will be able to go all the way and achieve that level of education. people will be expected to share jobs based on their level of experience. the people with the higher education won't need to do clean up duties in the hospitals as they already undertake a lot with complex surgeries and diagnoses while people just beginning their education will need to rotate clean up duties, minor medical duties, paperwork, etc. the most highly educated will still need to take care of paperwork and some minor medical duties as well as the complex surgeries and diagnoses. that is how job sharing will work and it will all be on a voluntary basis. people will cooperate to encourage others to do better. this way it will be cooperative both on a personal and a B2B level.


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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

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