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The Pledge of Alligance
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| eboyd |
Date: Friday, 29/Jan/10, 8:15 PM | Message # 16 |
Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (Pensmoke) Ah we are quite passionate arent we? Racism is wrong, anybody can agree on that if they have common sense. The fight against the word God being removed from things is just quite nitpicky all around. The issue of Indian named sports teams, on the exception of the Redskins, is no less nitpicky than the issue of the phrase "in God we trust" being in the Pledge of Allegiance. Also, religious bigotry is just as wrong as racism. I don't believe in God and I have a right not to believe in God, do you disagree? When our country's Pledge of Allegiance has been intentionally revised specifically to disclude people like myself (something that shows in society. for example, George Bush Sr. actually publicly stating that atheists don't deserve to be US citizens), that is religious bigotry and it is basically like telling me and others like myself "convert or get the fuck out of my country". It is bigotry, plain and simple. Because of the Pledge, no atheist can honestly pledge allegiance to America.
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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 29/Jan/10, 8:54 PM | Message # 17 |
Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (eboyd) -Breakz, read the history of the pledge that I posted above. To add to what I posted, "under God" wasn't added until the 1950 in part due to McCarthyism. America saw communism as a threat and they wanted to distance their selves from it as much as possible. Communists were atheists. America took pride in the religious freedom they allowed (supposedly) and since the commies that we so vehemently detested (despite the fact that the person who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance was a socialist) were atheists, we needed to pledge our allegiance to God, simply to oppose the commies. America was founded as a secular nation. A large portion of our greatest figures that helped found our nation were deists, some, like Thomas Payne, were actually speculated to have been atheists. Though we have always been, as an overall society, religiously extreme, starting with the very settlers who left Europe to travel here, the main purpose of the settlers was to escape religious persecution. There has been a strong movement in opposition to the "in God we trust" found in our pledge since it was conceptualized and some of the biggest voices of opposition included religious officials, including the very person who originally wrote it.
Oh ok, well really who gives a fuck? Students should be able to decide what they want or not want to say, either way the pledge of allegience is bullshit because what they're saying isn't even true. Idc, though, it never really bothered me lol.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 06/Feb/10, 4:46 AM | Message # 18 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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I could say the same about you in relation to our struggle. I personally agree with you. I have no problem with you fighting for Indian rights. However, what you need to see is that atheists have been persecuted for far longer than Indians and continue to be persecuted to this day. We are currently the most hated group in the country simply because of our beliefs. The Pledge of Allegiance is just one more example of American society excluding us simply because we do not believe. Put yourself in my shoes just for a second. You should be able to see it if you are a reasonable person. You can't have it both ways. Either we're both being nitpicky or we're both justified. How would it be for you if you felt excluded from society by our very pledge of allegiance? I'm sure you already know exactly how that feels (except for to a higher degree) as a diaspora of the most marginalized and massacred civilization in the history of the United States, especially being that I'm certain you have at least a few relatives reduced to living on run down reservations. Your peoples' culture has been ripped from under their feet; their sacred lands turned into an amusement park for the wealthy and "civilized" Europeans; their artwork stolen and mass produced by the capitalist machine. While the struggle of the people I represent is miniscule in comparison, especially considering we can at least hide our beliefs, that does not make it irrelevant. Wear my shoes for just a moment. When a person can be blacklisted and even driven from their community simply for their beliefs, is it not reasonable to fight for a change? I have personal experience of this. In Mississippi word got around to one of my teammates that I was an atheist. I did not know that he was aware of my personal beliefs but he acted bitter towards me because of it simply on a preconceived notion. He decided to begin being an asshole to me just because I didn't believe in God. And this is often a much worse issue than it was in my case; one which is continuously justified by the idea that America is a "Christian nation"; an idea that is fallaciously perpetuated, in part, by our Pledge of Allegiance. This idea makes it very difficult to function as an atheist who is open about his or her beliefs, and while I like to be completely open about mine, I find it extremely difficult in the society I live in. Admitting to being an atheist is almost as degrading in this society as admitting to being a registered sex offender. The longer you close your eyes to this realization the longer you perpetuate hypocrisy. No disrespect is meant by that in any way either. That was simply a statement of fact. Just try seeing this argument through my eyes for one moment and I guarantee you will understand.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| ilikebacon3000 |
Date: Saturday, 06/Feb/10, 10:53 PM | Message # 19 |
Emcees
Posts: 3979
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Quote (Pensmoke) the new 'militant atheists' like Dawkins, etc
Militant?
You wouldn't call opening your own school so you can indoctrinate your children militant, would you?
Would you call writing books about your faith in a judeo-christian god militant?
What about people praying before school? Or in class?
Or what about "See you at the Pole" movements?
What about TV programs/channels deticated to spreading their faith?
What about bumper stickers which openly express their faith?
If all these things involved Christianity, or Judiasm, or Islam, or whatever, it's fine. The second athiesm jumps into the picture, it becomes evil and militant. I am no athiest, but I'm all for athiest rights.
Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
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| ilikebacon3000 |
Date: Saturday, 06/Feb/10, 11:17 PM | Message # 20 |
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Emcees
Posts: 3979
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Quote (Pensmoke) So now I have become your enemy, huh? lol
Nah, not at all. BTW, about yesterday, that wasn't directed towards guys like you in anyway. This Bible Thumper kid came up to me first, and kept harrassing me after I told him repeadtly that I wasn't interested after I gave him 5 minutes, and he just wouldn't quit. Then I get home and this guy calls me and asks if I could sell him weed, so I was just like "You know what? I'm done. I'm coming straight up about everything. I'm sick of people having the wrong idea about me."
So if I sounded too harsh, I apologize. alot of that was anger rather then actual thought. What I mean by "Followers of God" were people like Al-queda, the people at Westboro, the Mormans, the people in that "Jesus Camp" movie (CRAZY film. You should see it.... It's disgusting. Not Christian at all. This is brainwashing, not helping children learn.) Quote (Pensmoke) However, the ones leading the 'charge' if you will, these days are the militant type.
I can agree with that. I hate it. One of my good friends is a very militant athiest. I asked her when she told me, "How do you KNOW there is no god?" and she simply responded, "There just isn't. There is no way. Sorry.". That is a very ignorant way to think.... It bothers me.
But guys like Erik on the other hand usually are able to back up most of their claims with SOMETHING, whether it be historical, scientific, or whatever. Even if I don't think it's true, I apperciate that he has something to say back rather than just "I'm right."
But yeah, I'm sorry about that Pen. It WAS NOT directed at guys like you at all. It was directed towards people around my way. The Bible Thumping, confederate flag flying, NASCAR watching, racist bigots who are ignorant, and very stupid. I cannot stand them..... So yeah. I hope that clears up any beef between you and I. I apologize. 90% of that note was anger, 5% what I think, and 5% what I hear from others.
Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
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| eboyd |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 3:10 AM | Message # 21 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (Pensmoke) Dude, no way man come on. Its true there have always been people who didn't believe in God since who knows how long ago. However, this current 'atheist movement' is not that old of a trend. Its picked up quite a bit of steam since the 60s and 70s and has picked up even more steam since the likes of the new 'militant atheists' like Dawkins, etc who are at the forefront of the current movement. Definitely haven't been 'persecuted' 'far longer' than Indians though bro, come on. On the internet, especially youtube, atheists are the majority and are gaining more to their ranks at an astounding pace due to the world's generally technologically driven cynicism about all things that are not 'tangible'. Arguing about this little aspect of my argument is unnecessary. I'll leave it at this: Socrates, if you can believe the accounts of those that wrote about him (seeing as we have found nothing written by Socrates), was executed for being an atheist and that was thousands of years before Europeans conquered the Native Americans. Now, I would appreciate that rather than cherry-picking my argument for things you disagree with, please address my argument as a whole. Thank you.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 3:44 AM | Message # 22 |
Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (Pensmoke) I know the difference between your everday kind of normal atheist and the militant kind. Can you not differentiate one kind of "Christian" from another? It seems not.
With all do respect, there is a major reason why some atheists become "militant" (in actuallity simply passionate). Some atheist become militant because they see religion for more than what it is on the surface. They see religion as a very anti-life perspective that is oriented towards an extremely detrimental way of looking at reality and existence. They basically see a web of problems that religion has created and they see how these problems perpetuate pain and suffering in the world. It is a complete 360 in perspective and it takes a lot of deep digging to realize the unseen monster. They see the elimination of religion as the liberation of life and consciousness, and the key to an elevated world. Many atheists become militant because at one time they once believed in religion and they eventually found themselves completely disillusioned. And that makes them passionately angry that they were obliviously swept away by what they would consider lunacy. So they fight it. I do.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| I_Guy |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 3:54 AM | Message # 23 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (eboyd) Socrates, if you can believe the accounts of those that wrote about him (seeing as we have found nothing written by Socrates), was executed for being an atheist and that was thousands of years before Europeans conquered the Native Americans.
Yo check out Giordano Bruno also for another example.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| ilikebacon3000 |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 1:37 PM | Message # 24 |
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Emcees
Posts: 3979
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Quote (I_Guy) Many atheists become militant because at one time they once believed in religion and they eventually found themselves completely disillusioned
I definitley can see that.
I have never been "disillusioned", but I have seen people become that way and it bothers me. However I am not a militant atheist, or even an atheist.... Weird.
Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
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| Menace |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 3:31 PM | Message # 25 |
Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (eboyd) Arguing about this little aspect of my argument is unnecessary. I'll leave it at this: Socrates, if you can believe the accounts of those that wrote about him (seeing as we have found nothing written by Socrates), was executed for being an atheist and that was thousands of years before Europeans conquered the Native Americans. Atheist persecution goes into ancient times that's true . Atheist persecution stopped whit the rise of the civil rights movement in the 60's when Pen thinks the " atheist movement " started . This shows us that the entire spawn of human history was full of atheist persecution . Up until civil rights were enforced and when secularism kicked in a defiant form .
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| eboyd |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 6:42 PM | Message # 26 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Atheist persecution never stopped, not even in the civil rights movement. There are plenty of documented circumstances of atheists being murdered for their atheism even well into the 21st century. For example, Arthur Shelton blew his best friend and roommate Larry Hooper's head off with a shotgun when he found out that he was an atheist. Also, Ashlee Appoo, a drifter and Christian, was hitchhiking. A couple picked him up and gave him a place to stay for a few days. When he asked they explained that they were atheists and he went ballistic. He took an axe to the husband's head and to the wife's leg. Situations like this happen more often than you think, you just don't hear about them like you do about situations like the black people murdered in hate crimes because America is a Christian extremist nation much like the Middle East is full of Muslim extremist nations (in fact the similarities are startling) and so it is still widely acceptable to be bigoted against atheists. As I've said, atheists are the most hated group in America, even more hated than gays, jews and blacks. The only group that compares (but has never been persecuted like atheists mainly because of their short history) is scientologists. This seclusion from society that atheists are forced in to is, in part, due to the American government's blatant and vehement anti-atheism that lead to the Pledge of Allegiance being butchered to purposefully exclude atheists as citizens. This was apparent even more recently when George Bush senior publicly stated, with little resistance or coverage of any kind, that he didn't believe atheists deserved to be citizens.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| eboyd |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 7:13 PM | Message # 27 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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And btw, the pro-atheism on YouTube is hardly indicative of anything. It just so happens that YT has somehow become the most open and widely accepted place for the younger generation to express their atheism, so the 2% of society (in the US. In other countries the number is a bit higher) that feels lost outside has a safe haven on YouTube to express themselves that they don't have at school, work, in everyday social interaction, etc. Yes, the number of atheists everywhere is growing, but that is because of the scientific discoveries of recent and the activism reminiscent (though not anywhere near as strong) of the civil rights movement.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 8:52 PM | Message # 28 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (eboyd) 2% of society
Where are you getting this number from? Statistics aren't that credible especially if they involve religion. There could be many "weak athiests" or "weak believers". I have read from a few websites that there are 29.4 million Americans who are "not religious". I'll say from personal experience that there are a lot of attacks on religion from tv shows, school teachers, the internet. I'm honestly surprised that only 2% of the american population are athiests, especially considering that only 2% of the American population are native americans and I have yet to EVER even SEE a full blooded native american... unless that person was mexican or something, but those people don't count as native americans.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 10:12 PM | Message # 29 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (Pensmoke) That was an incredibly ignorant statement, man. Where do you live and what is your racial background?
I live in San Diego and I'm latino, white, and native american... and maybe some other crap, idk, but what does my race have to do with anything? I'm just saying that I'm surprised that only 2% of the American population are athiests, it would seem to me that there are many more athiests, especially since full-blooded native americans only make up 2% of the population and I have yet see one in my life. How am I being ignorant? Quote (pensmoke) And, also Mexicans come from Native/Spaniard mix. Which one do most Mexicans look more like?
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| ilikebacon3000 |
Date: Sunday, 07/Feb/10, 10:33 PM | Message # 30 |
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Emcees
Posts: 3979
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Quote (Pensmoke) That was an incredibly ignorant statement, man. Where do you live and what is your racial background? And, also Mexicans come from Native/Spaniard mix. Which one do most Mexicans look more like?
Plus you never know how much Native American someone has in them. I've seen people that look white that turned out to have pretty deep roots. Then again I don't know much about the Native American community and what not...
Life's a bitch and I'm just along for the ride.
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