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Property
ilikebacon3000 Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 4:41 PM | Message # 1

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I want your opinions on this.
-Should people be allowed to own property (land, items, food, etc. NOT people.)
-In an Anarchist state, would said property exist at all?
-If it does exist in an Anarchist state, would it be bought and sold using money? Would money exist at all?

BTW, I am not talking about a specific form of Anarchy. Just an anarchist state. I know that is VERY broad, but still.
I'm just a little confused about that all. About whether or not property exists in an anarchist state.


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J-Breakz Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 4:53 PM | Message # 2

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)
Should people be allowed to own property (land, items, food, etc. NOT people.)

Personally, I believe people have to be allowed to own property in order for there to be freedom. But of course, this is debatable and many people would disagree.

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-In an Anarchist state, would said property exist at all?

Depends what type of anarchy. A true anarchist state has no rules and there is absolute freedom so probably yeah I guess but it's impossible to have a TRUE anarchist society with people having absolute freedom because then govn'ts would arise and quite possibly totalitarian dictatorships.

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-If it does exist in an Anarchist state, would it be bought and sold using money? Would money exist at all?

Money has to exist, supply and demand is a natural law.


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eboyd Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 6:44 PM | Message # 3

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)
Just an anarchist state

the term "anarchist state" is an oxymoron.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Money has to exist, supply and demand is a natural law.

I_Guy would argue against you in this regard. i am personally on the fence here. i see where he is going, but i am not quite sure what he speaks of can be achieved. i personally approve, currently, of the vouchers used in the Spanish Revolution. basically a person would work a certain amount of hours and based on how many hours you work, you receive a voucher for those hours and so you got paid, literally, in hours of work. now though this crude form sounds ok, there are many holes. for example, if two people work moving people's belongings from house to house and one is stronger than the other, should the stronger man get paid more than the weaker one just because he's able to do the same job with less effort? not at all. for this, an additional provision should be added. someone should be paid also according to how onerous the task was for them. there are other tweaks that will need to be made, but like i said, i currently favor vouchers.

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-Should people be allowed to own property (land, items, food, etc. NOT people.)

bacon, think philosophically here. can you truly make a claim to ownership, rightfully, to anything but yourself? think about it. if everything that exists has existed in some form since long before you were born, quite possibly forever, can you truly claim ownership of it? just to make sure you get this, here's the definition of ownership:

"legal right of possession; proprietorship."

this definition shows that ownership goes beyond possession. it is the legal right of possession. do you really have a right to something that is not a part of you? can you use it? sure. but can we really justify owning it? i would contest that we can't. i would, in fact, contest that even self ownership is impossible. what we are technically doing as sentient beings is using the resources we are currently built up of to represent us. our atoms have existed in the past eternally and will continue to exist in the future eternally, long after we are no longer conscious and living. so what exactly is ownership? it gives us full rights in a legal sense to things we can never claim any sort of right to in the first place. in this sense, ownership is actually a form of slavery. sure, we are not enslaving sentient beings and so there are no psychological side effects, but ownership gives us a sense that we can do as we like with that which we own. if we recognize usership rather than ownership, we have a sense that what is being used should be handled with more care, because it is not ours to defame.


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Menace Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 6:59 PM | Message # 4

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Quote (ilikebacon3000)
I want your opinions on this.
-Should people be allowed to own property (land, items, food, etc. NOT people.)
-In an Anarchist state, would said property exist at all?
-If it does exist in an Anarchist state, would it be bought and sold using money? Would money exist at all?

BTW, I am not talking about a specific form of Anarchy. Just an anarchist state. I know that is VERY broad, but still.
I'm just a little confused about that all. About whether or not property exists in an anarchist state.

Well that's the problem . You can't answer them questions without specifying the form of anarchism . Every form of anarchism deals differently whit each question . I can answer them questions and give the answers but the answers will come from my anarcho-syndicalist point of view as J breakz from his "anarcho" capitalist point of view. Anarchism as a political philosophy encompasses theories and attitudes which consider the state to be unnecessary, harmful, or otherwise undesirable, and favor instead a stateless society or anarchy. The uniting principle in anarchism is anti-statism . But when it comes to property there are different viewpoints .

So i will answer your questions from my personal viewpoint :

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-Should people be allowed to own property (land, items, food, etc. NOT people.)

I favor collective ownership of all means of production based upon workers coops , workers councils etc. which will be grouped into free federations and federated they will work accordingly upon the principles of free agreement and voluntary association . So my answer is no .

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-In an Anarchist state, would said property exist at all?

No . To say that private property is natural is an oxymoron . Grab a wasteland owned by no one put an fence around and its yours ?

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-If it does exist in an Anarchist state, would it be bought and sold using money? Would money exist at all?

Again here it depends on the viewpoint of the individual which answers your question . J Breakz favors money i personally favor vouchers instead of money . Anarcho-Communists for example want to abolish money and vouchers they favor a gift economy . So it depends . But what i personally say is abolish money and replace it whit vouchers .

Quote (eboyd)
for example, if two people work moving people's belongings from house to house and one is stronger than the other, should the stronger man get paid more than the weaker one just because he's able to do the same job with less effort? not at all. for this, an additional provision should be added. someone should be paid also according to how onerous the task was for them. there are other tweaks that will need to be made, but like i said, i currently favor vouchers.

Balanced job complexes will solve that problem Erik don't worry .


eboyd Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 7:03 PM | Message # 5

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Again here it depends on the viewpoint of the individual which answers your question . J Breakz favors money i personally favor vouchers instead of money . Anarcho-Communists for example want to abolish money and vouchers they favor a gift economy . So it depends . But what i personally say is abolish money and replace it whit vouchers .

are vouchers really a form of gift or would they technically be a crude form of money? they seem to represent our labor to purchase goods, which i would consider money personally.


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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

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Menace Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 7:21 PM | Message # 6

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Quote (eboyd)
are vouchers really a form of gift or would they technically be a crude form of money? they seem to represent our labor to purchase goods, which i would consider money personally.

The basic point of economic activity in an anarchist society is to ensure that we produce what we desire to consume and that our consumption is under our own control and not vice versa. That's why we eliminate private property and that's why traditional money goes whit it . Vouchers represent your labor , yes but you control what you produce and own your labor now so it has a different outcome on your voucher. I am comfortable whit calling vouchers money . But this is controversial and very debatable within libertarian socialism .For example anarcho-communists want to go directly towards a gift economy directly towards post scarcity . That is not quite possible from an anarcho-syndicalist viewpoint. As i said to I_Guy "communism"as in post scarcity moneyless , stateless , classless society will ultimately come by evolution from any anarchist collectivist society . Only over time, as productivity increases and the sense of community becomes stronger, money will disappear.


eboyd Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 7:42 PM | Message # 7

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The basic point of economic activity in an anarchist society is to ensure that we produce what we desire to consume and that our consumption is under our own control and not vice versa. That's why we eliminate private property and that's why traditional money goes whit it . Vouchers represent your labor , yes but you control what you produce and own your labor now so it has a different outcome on your voucher. I am comfortable whit calling vouchers money . But this is controversial and very debatable within libertarian socialism .For example anarcho-communists want to go directly towards a gift economy directly towards post scarcity . That is not quite possible from an anarcho-syndicalist viewpoint. As i said to I_Guy "communism"as in post scarcity moneyless , stateless , classless society will ultimately come by evolution from any anarchist collectivist society . Only over time, as productivity increases and the sense of community becomes stronger, money will disappear.

oh ok, i get it.


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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

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ilikebacon3000 Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 10:57 PM | Message # 8

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Okay guys I appreciate the responses but I most likely won't be able to really read them until Thursday night because tomarrow I have church and Friday I have band practice and I just got home but yeah I will check them out in depth ASAP.
I kind of skimmed through them just now.


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J-Breakz Date: Tuesday, 19/Jan/10, 11:36 PM | Message # 9

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Quote (eboyd)
the term "anarchist state" is an oxymoron.

Anarchist state [of being] isn't an oxymoron.


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eboyd Date: Wednesday, 20/Jan/10, 0:21 AM | Message # 10

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Quote (J-Breakz)
Anarchist state [of being] isn't an oxymoron.

Quote (ilikebacon3000)
-If it does exist in an Anarchist state, would it be bought and sold using money? Would money exist at all?

^^^^ doesn't sound to me like he means "state of being", though i could be wrong, but if he means what i think he means, anarchism is the abolishment of the state, so the terms anarchism and statism are antonymous, making "anarchist state" an oxymoron.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

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J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 20/Jan/10, 0:35 AM | Message # 11

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Quote (eboyd)
making "anarchist state" an oxymoron.

most likely he meant what you think he meant but it still can be acceptable to say what he said just as long as he implied a state of being.


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eboyd Date: Wednesday, 20/Jan/10, 1:52 AM | Message # 12

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Quote (J-Breakz)
most likely he meant what you think he meant but it still can be acceptable to say what he said just as long as he implied a state of being.

true :)


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

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J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 20/Jan/10, 1:57 AM | Message # 13

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Quote (eboyd)
true :)

yeah I know, I'm bein a prick. I'll keep quiet in this thread from now on.


livin life like some cheesy movie
eboyd Date: Wednesday, 20/Jan/10, 3:04 AM | Message # 14

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yeah I know, I'm bein a prick. I'll keep quiet in this thread from now on.

lol nah, it's cool man. don't trip. i didn't take offense. i didn't even feel you were being a prick.


my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

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eboyd Date: Wednesday, 20/Jan/10, 10:31 PM | Message # 15

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my new theme song



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"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

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battle record:

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