Capitalism's Annihilating Factors - Page 4

Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 6:25 PM | Message # 46

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Quote (I_Guy)

Didn't push it in people's noses obsessively enough.

aka not a good enough marketing scheme.

Quote (I_Guy)

What of it when they do enough just to get along? You act like people realize in an instant that they are neglecting their health, or that they are causing themselves to lose out in the long run. Realizations like this are slow to come about. Sometimes it's too late by the time a person realizes. They've wasted too much time. But the real issue is that individual situations like this creates a nation of apathetic people who are too distracted to be concerned with vital issues, and then they go and give their vote, which affects both you and me. Or they spread ignorance which contributes to an extension of the same problem. I'm not saying that all people are like this. Not all people are obsessive gamers. But you can substitute "gamers" and you'll see my point.

to add to this, in a capitalist society it is not easy to get a job. in the society i am speaking of, all you have to do in order to make money is decide "this sucks. i need more to sustain myself. i need to work" and then you go to whatever workplace you want and work and get paid through your union.

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I_Guy

Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 6:29 PM | Message # 47

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Quote (J-Breakz)

Alright, so I'm beginning to forget what I_Guys point was supposed to be but wonderful.

Like I said, when "stress-relievers" are over-produced on a market so that they can be over-used by the masses, we have a monumental problem that spreads its tentacles to unimaginable depths of our reality. And the effect on our reality is difficult to realize because the problems that are created are virtually infinitely interconnected and inter-causal. Capitalism has almost single handedly created this web of problems. The problems that are created are annihilating factors because in the web of all these problems, the lone individual is slowly sucked dry by the spider (capitalism). And if not the individual, then surely the future is sucked dry.

Capitalism by its very nature, needs to create problems to sell solutions to. The result is overall stagnation or compounding destruction. It's hard to see it because it's so massive. Because overall there is an accumulation of destruction. The solutions that capitalism sells is only illusory. The visibility of the destruction lags behind the illusion, until eventually the illusions are broken once the destruction becomes to obvious. Not all of capitalism is about this, but as a whole, the majority of its mentality is all about this. That's why we see the degradation of so many things (virtually the entire planet). Simply put, capitalism is unsustainable, and by that, it is irrational. Unless wanting the destruction of everything is rational. This isn't even mentioning how much it restrains humankind's potential.

We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...

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Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 6:49 PM | Message # 48

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Quote (I_Guy)

But people don't realize their destructive cycle, so no the demand doesn't drop. Because people don't realize the interconnection of all the problems.

So then why is Mcdonald's trying to change their image and make healthier foods?

Quote (I_Guy)

Didn't push it in people's noses obsessively enough.

Wow, no.

There has been plenty of products that still had a good amount of money behind its name.

Quote (I_Guy)

These are purely cultural developments, not market perpetuation.

That's what I'm saying. Cultural developments are reflected by the market.

Quote (I_Guy)

"However, this self-interested stewardship of private lands did not extend to the commons. As a result, the commons were overgrazed and degenerated to the point that they were no longer able to support the villagers' cattle. This failure of private incentives to provide adequate maintenance of public resources is known to economists as 'the tragedy of the commons.'"
Private property is involved here. So this point's relevance to my comment is little.

No it wasn't...?? How was private property involved?

Quote (I_Guy)

Right, but the various industries deliberately create addiction. Is that not unethical?

It's to meet a demand. That demand will always be met. That isn't evil.

Quote (I_Guy)

What of it when they do enough just to get along?

Then there isn't a problem. He's getting what he wants and he's still being productive.

Quote (I_Guy)

You act like people realize in an instant that they are neglecting their health, or that they are causing themselves to lose out in the long run. Realizations like this are slow to come about.

No, I do realize it takes time. But the more time there is the more it becomes obvious there's a problem.

Quote (I_Guy)

But the real issue is that individual situations like this creates a nation of apathetic people who are too distracted to be concerned with vital issues, and then they go and give their vote, which affects both you and me.

An excellent argument, this is why I'm an individualist.

Quote (I_Guy)

Imagine if their was no competition. There would be no advertisements shoving garbage in people's face. Because there would be no directly applied self-interest in a cooperative society, because only what is needed and agreed upon will be produced. There would be no money-hungry entrepreneur trying to sell the next brand of unneeded bullshit.

I told you your whole argument is basically the market creates demand. lol. People WANT that garbage though. If they didn't then they wouldn't buy it. I agree, there's definately other things that people can be doing that's more productive. But I have no problem with someone buying a toy rather than a book, if that's what they want then I don't think I should judge that.

Quote (I_Guy)

They didn't have the technology to manage their resources. We have the technology now to much better do so. That's what the Venus Project advocates: technology as the extension of human abilities.

It still takes us forever just to get information on how many people we have on this earth. It's not even accurate, it's an estimate. An estimate can be very dangerous. But let's look at Cuba. They try to use technology to manage resources and apparently Erik is telling me they have one of the healthiest economics in the world. But they have constant good shortages and overproduction problems.

Quote (I_Guy)

Will you deny that technology will be able to regulate a natural supply and demand of resources?

No, we do have technology that's able to regulate a natural supply and demand of resources. We call it money.

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Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 7:11 PM | Message # 49

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Quote (J-Breakz)

So then why is Mcdonald's trying to change their image and make healthier foods?

grassroots movements. it's like pulling teeth to get McDonald's to even budge slightly.

Quote (J-Breakz)

There has been plenty of products that still had a good amount of money behind its name.

but they still didn't market their product correctly.

Quote (J-Breakz)

It's to meet a demand. That demand will always be met. That isn't evil.

when companies intentionally and secretly add addictive chemicals into their products, that is absolutely evil and unethical.

Quote (J-Breakz)

state socialist/communist nations create shortages. capitalist nations create artificial surpluses with artificially high prices, in effect creating demand shortages. syndicalism and other forms of state free socialism alleviate both of these problems. that's why comparing state socialist economies to a libertarian socialist economy is unfounded. seeing, however, that Cuba does, in fact, have the 11th highest GDP in the world shows that capitalism isn't the only way to do things and that even state socialism works to an extent.

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Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 7:22 PM | Message # 50

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Quote (eboyd)

seeing, however, that Cuba does, in fact, have the 11th highest GDP in the world shows that capitalism isn't the only way to do things and that even state socialism works to an extent.

omg

"After 40 years, the economic Standard of Living in Cuba is less than 1% of what it was in the decade of the 50's."
http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagjr002.php

"The average Cuban's standard of living remains at a lower level than before the severe economic depression of the early 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies."

http://www.faqs.org/docs/factbook/geos/cu.html

Now let's look in the wikipedia:

"By the year 2006, public sector employment was 78% and private sector 22%, compared to 91.8% to 8.2% in 1981."

They needed a lil capitalism in order not to collapse.

"Under Venezuela's Mission Barrio Adentro, Hugo Chávez has supplied Cuba up to 80,000 barrels (13,000 m3) of oil per day in exchange for 30,000 doctors and teachers."

They are also supported by venezuela to prevent from collapsing.

I don't know why you're arguing for a country that had to outlaw laziness in order to keep people from exploiting a pathetic govn't

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Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 7:41 PM | Message # 51

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Quote (J-Breakz)

"After 40 years, the economic Standard of Living in Cuba is less than 1% of what it was in the decade of the 50's."

what is that even based on? the only people complaining about Cuba after the 50's were the rich people who couldn't be rich anymore (many of which were forced from their homes) and poor people who were being oppressed because Castro was a vicious dictator.

Quote (J-Breakz)

"By the year 2006, public sector employment was 78% and private sector 22%, compared to 91.8% to 8.2% in 1981."

yes, they allowed self-employment. maybe if you actually read what i write you'll notice that i am all for self-employment. i hate regulation as much if not more vehemently than you do.

Quote (J-Breakz)

They are also supported by venezuela to prevent from collapsing.

oh, so they were supported by another socialist nation?

Quote (J-Breakz)

I don't know why you're arguing for a country that had to outlaw laziness in order to keep people from exploiting a pathetic govn't

if you would just read my argument you will notice that i am not. i am arguing that state socialism and capitalism both suck for various reasons, and when you have a dictator like Castro in place it doesn't help. i was playing your game, like i said. instead of saying no every time you tried to compare libertarian socialism to state socialism (because they are so vastly different that it's mind boggling), i decided this time to just buy into it to show you that your assertions that socialism is the evil that is rotting the planet is unfounded because it's effects economically (since that is the only thing you cared about until i showed you that Cuba is doing just fine economically overall, of course the people are struggling) are comparable to the effects of capitalism.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living

Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 7:49 PM | Message # 52

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Quote (eboyd)

it's based on this:

Quote (eboyd)

oh, so they were supported by another socialist nation?

Yeah that has a shit load of oil so they were already rich. If they adapted capitalism the people would be a lot more successful

Quote (eboyd)

(since that is the only thing you cared about until i showed you that Cuba is doing just fine economically overall, of course the people are struggling)

Their NOT though, anyone with a degree in economics will tell you "No, Cuba is NOT doing just fine economically overall". You go to college, don't you? Ask that. Economics is the proper allocation of natural resources. Obviously Cuba isn't doing a good job of that.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living

Date: Wednesday, 10/Feb/10, 8:04 PM | Message # 53

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Quote (J-Breakz)

it's based on this:

why don't you try the quality of life index istead where France is #1 and Cuba is smack dab in the middle mainly due to the ridiculous restrictions Castro placed on Cuba

Quote (J-Breakz)

Yeah that has a shit load of oil so they were already rich. If they adapted capitalism the people would be a lot more successful

says who? they were a capitalist nation prior to Chavez taking power and people lived in tiny shacks and were starving to death. now the average poor person in Venezuela actually gets to send their children to school and put a hot meal on the table.

Quote (J-Breakz)

their GDP is one of the highest in the world. their quality of living isn't that high, but that's Castro's fault. France is at #1 and is still a highly socialist mixed economy.

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Date: Thursday, 11/Feb/10, 2:02 AM | Message # 54

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Quote (eboyd)

their GDP is one of the highest in the world. their quality of living isn't that high, but that's Castro's fault. France is at #1 and is still a highly socialist mixed economy.

...You don't just measure how well an economy is doing by just the gdp, there's a lot of things that have to be looked at. Like I've said before:

"The credit goes, in large part, to the economic lifeline thrown to Cuba by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, who is using his country's tremendous oil reserves to prop up the Castro government and counter Bush administration policy in Latin America."

Oh funny, it even has this:

"Cuba has an economy that is far from healthy. But the country is a world away from the one left destitute and marooned with the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, its longtime benefactor."

I've already talked about the change in the economic policy put in place by the conservatives which greatly improved France's economy.

"France's economy combines extensive private enterprise (nearly 2.5 million companies registered)[50][51] with substantial (though declining[52]) state enterprise and government intervention (see dirigisme)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Economy

"The Financial Times reports that France is deregulating and cutting taxes in hopes of competing with London in the financial services market. The article also notes that Switzerland and Germany also are trying to attract business by reducing the burden of government. Needless to say, these positive reforms would not happen if the bureaucrats in Brussels had the authority to create a continent-wide regulatory regime."

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2007....-france

Oh, but trust me, the regulation in place hasn't done much good:

"French unemployment has hovered around 10 percent for years, but the unemployment rate for the rioting young people is well above 20 percent and in some immigrant neighborhoods tops 60 percent. Overall economic growth is less than half that of the United States. "

"On average, the United States creates more new private-sector jobs in a month than France does in a year. "

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5202

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Date: Thursday, 11/Feb/10, 5:34 AM | Message # 55

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Quote (J-Breakz)

I've already talked about the change in the economic policy put in place by the conservatives which greatly improved France's economy.

the point was that it is still a heavily mixed economy with a strong socialist lean and it is #1 in the world in quality of life. if it was a mixed economy and it was at, say, #14 in the world, i would completely understand and leave it alone, but it is #1 with a shitload of government intervention. it trumps every one of the nations you used as examples of highly capitalist nations, including Austria which is, admittedly, just below France at #2. and once again, i am not at all arguing in favor of state socialism.

Quote (J-Breakz)

Oh, but trust me, the regulation in place hasn't done much good:

so? that argument is completely invalid. remember, i even said that Cuba's unemployment rate is at 1.9%. the US and many other capitalist nations are well above that:

US:

"Population below poverty line 13.2% (2008)"
"Unemployment 9.7% (February 2010)"

Austria:

"Unemployment 5.4% (December 2009 est.)"

Cuba:

"Population below poverty line 1% (2006)"
"Unemployment 1.9% (2007 est.)"

but seriously, why the fuck do i even care to argue about France or Cuba? i don't give a shit about the economies of either country. they're just as bad as capitalism, probably worse. you keep perpetuating argument on this topic even though i've told you Cuba and France don't matter to me. the point was that neither country is so terrible in comparison to any of the countries you mention that they don't even warrant comparison. both systems (capitalism and state socialism) are terrible and it would do the people a great service if they replaced both of them with something better, such as anarcho-syndicalism.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Economy

Date: Thursday, 11/Feb/10, 3:13 PM | Message # 56

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Quote (eboyd)

the point was that it is still a heavily mixed economy with a strong socialist lean and it is #1 in the world in quality of life.

You can't just assume it's because of government regulation though. It wouldn't make sense that there are reports of wealthy people and successful business leaving France yet they still have a high standard of living. So we have to look at how France is getting so much income.

"France is ranked as the first tourist destination in the world, ahead of Spain (58.5 million in 2006) and the United States (51.1 million in 2006). This 81.9 million figure excludes people staying less than 24 hours in France, such as northern Europeans crossing France on their way to Spain or Italy during the summer."

This with the help of dirigisme obviously contribute to France's successful economy. Especially considering before when there was heavy amounts of regulation there was a lot of food shortages and such.

Quote (eboyd)

Cuba's unemployment rate is at 1.9%.

employment means nothing if you're barely making shit and you can barely afford anything with the money you make with your job. Once again, there's a lot of things that determine how well an economy is doing.

Quote (eboyd)

you keep perpetuating argument on this topic even though i've told you Cuba and France don't matter to me. the point was that neither country is so terrible in comparison to any of the countries you mention that they don't even warrant comparison.

No, because you're making a statement that is ignorant. Stop judging economies based off of one or two things. It's ridiculous

Quote (eboyd)

both systems (capitalism and state socialism) are terrible and it would do the people a great service if they replaced both of them with something better, such as anarcho-syndicalism.

Yeah, well I'm beginning to show you things you didn't think about before in anarcho-syndicalism in the other thread so we're not going to make the conclusion that anarcho-syndicalism is the better society.

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Date: Thursday, 11/Feb/10, 3:26 PM | Message # 57

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Quote (eboyd)

but they still didn't market their product correctly.

Alright, so what explains the billions spent on market research to see what people would like? If this is the case why are companies even bothering with spending so much money producing a product when they can just go ahead and sell a piece of junk since they control demand.

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Date: Friday, 12/Feb/10, 0:26 AM | Message # 58

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Quote (J-Breakz)

You can't just assume it's because of government regulation though.

no, but i can assume it is in spite of heavy government regulation.

Quote (J-Breakz)

lol you were the one that brought up the US's unemployment rate in comparison to France so i brought up Cuba's unemployment rate in comparison to the US and Austria. that's all. now we're done on the argument between capitalism and state socialism because neither of these concern me lol.

Quote (J-Breakz)

and i've thoroughly debunked every last point you made. why don't you go check what i wrote in the other thread.

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Date: Friday, 12/Feb/10, 1:13 AM | Message # 59

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Quote (eboyd)

no, but i can assume it is in spite of heavy government regulation.

Ok, and just imagine how successful the country would be without any regualtion.

Quote (eboyd)

When did I bring up that comparison and what does that have to with my post about the soviet union?

Quote (eboyd)

and i've thoroughly debunked every last point you made. why don't you go check what i wrote in the other thread.

lol right

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Date: Friday, 12/Feb/10, 1:42 AM | Message # 60

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Quote (J-Breakz)

Ok, and just imagine how successful the country would be without any regualtion.

i agree. it would prosper much more without government or private regulation

Quote (J-Breakz)

When did I bring up that comparison and what does that have to with my post about the soviet union?

what? i never said anything about the soviet union. you said that the US still has a lower unemployment rate than France and i said neither the US or Austria has a lower unemployment rate than Cuba.

Quote (J-Breakz)

lol right

i'm still waiting for you to bring a strong counter argument.