And by the way, it is possible to stereotype age. On all accounts I could go on a rant about "HOW MUCH THAT OFFENDS ME." "BECAUSE IT'S CONDESCENDING AND GERNERALIZES AND BELITTLING!" But to be honest it doesn't really bother me, because it's irrelevant and I have more to go on than that. The age of someone should not make you feel silly for arguing with them. What they say is what matters. That's something "some" people like to go for, -age. "Oh well he's only this old so everything he says is basically no to be considered." Hmmm. You realize that most great artists/philosophers/social leaders, etc. began developing their thoughts in their youth by their late teens and early twenties? Perhaps that means something?

By the way, you are aware of the true urban native right? The kind in which they have lost all their tradition? It's quite tragic, but I agree with some of the things they have to say about native tradition. There's nothing wrong with maintaining culture, but (IMO) there's nothing good about maintaining tradition, because tradition grows irrelevant to the times.

[quote=ill]that god has brought mircales just like your god so how can he not exist[/quote]
what miracles? you wanna see the miracles of my God?

[quote=ill]that is the argument you make when we say YOUR god isnt real its a joke[/quote]
you are correct, miracles is an argument. wanna see them?....who's to say its a joke when you're still young...have you seen all miracles that occured around the world? i think not.

[quote=ill]how you just flip the argument to suit you, everything you say against their gods goes with the same counter argument when people ask the same of your god [/quote]
generalize much?

[quote=ill]and what do you mean does it have to be? you can take the 7 day creation as a metaphor but humans have been around alot longer then 6000 years. [/quote]
you don't have to take it as a metaphore....you can read the Bible as "God created the world in 7 days....time passed....God created Adam and Eve"

[quote=eboyd]it just proves that they don't believe in their God's omnipresence. [/quote]
then....it's not a god?? a God would have to be all powerful, no?

[quote=Menace]LOL that's laughable you base your belief system on faith other religions the same on faith so you can't discredit them as they can't discredit you [/quote]
no.....i base my beliefs on the Bible (--->***NOT***<--- one book), like many other religions that follow a book that contains no facts. ...name me one religious book that contains historical facts. look at the Bible, Jesus really existed and His story is told all over the world even by non christians, the only differencce is the people of other religions do not believe that He was ressurected.... all the kings in the Bible really existed and the people who wrote down the stories did not get together and collaborate on the Bible (like you can say for other religious texts)... it was written by different people from different place and at different times.... if it wasn't really what happened then how did they all get the same story the same way? Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies and God has revealed Himself several times throughout history and all witnesses and testimonies are recorded in the BIble (again, NOT one book, try 40+)...the only you're not willing to believe is because you don't want to, and resort in calling me a fool and dismissing everything i'm trying to say & laughing at it. i cant stress this enough, but you must take the idea of God/religion seriously....if you strive to know the truth you'll find it

[quote=Menace]you are a fool sodr2 and other religions have prophets and people who are historically proven too that doesn't resolve anything [/quote]
name one that have as many as Christianity. or even better. just name one and we'll discuss.

[quote=I_Guy]Man, sodr isn't even that bad. I just think about the millions of people out there who are just like him and worse. That's terrifying to me because I strive for a completely rational world. It may never be, but the removal of religion is the first step. That's one of the major problems with schools, they don't teach critical thinking very well. Instead they fill our heads with a bunch of mostly useless expirable facts that can be easily looked up anywhere at any time, especially in this age. You can't just go look up reason or logic. That's the kind of shit they need to teach, because with those kinds of tools you can defeat almost anything, and you will learn much faster. But instead they don't, so we have a bunch of determined guys like sodr, who always think they're right and fail to see the other side of their ill-logic. Sheeeit.... [/quote]
oh, so now I'm BAD?? only because i believe the Bible is the literal truth taken in it's correct context?? show me how i'm illogical....i said that atheism preys on the argument from ignorance, saying you guys claim that "no proof = 100% no God" then erik said no1 says that....you must at least be agnostic

[quote=8Diagrams]
Islam and Christianity believe in the same God, you imbecile, so therefor you called your own religion fake as well. [/quote]
wow....the same God? amazing. so I guess mormons believe in the same God as catholics/orthodox's ....i guess vishnu is the same god as thor....but let me explain to you anyways: Christianity says that Jesus is God. Islam does not....so please intrigue me and tell me how islam and Christianity believe in the same God.

i disagree. there are some GREAT traditions that have been passed on. if it weren't for tradition we would have no hip hop and therefore no website

not necessarily. a God can be many things. Gods have been defined differently throughout history. long before Christ and Christianity the ancient Greeks believed in Gods who were a mere step above mortals. they were jealous, they could die, etc. some people define God simply as the creator, some as a spiritual being who could give advice to humans in times of peril, etc. it is only in recent history that the conception of God has become the idea of an almighty power with the 4 omnis. we're talking the last 2000-4000 years. the earth has been around for billions of years, life has been around for millions and religion has been around for well over 10,000.

though i too believe Jesus existed (not as God's son or even a miracle worker though, but rather as a mere mortal and great man, likely comparable to, or even greater than, that of, say, Ghandi and MLK.

i do not label myself, this being one of the reasons, but if you want to be technical i'm an agnostic atheist (unsure of what to believe with a heavy lean towards atheism, but not spiteful to the opposite viewpoint of course, seeing as i see the possibility of the existence of a God, so to speak, i just don't see it is probable).

it's not a different God. it's a different perspective of the same God. does that make sense? that's how i see it. though some religions have views that are WAAAY too different to be worshiping the same God.

my new theme song



erikboyd60@hotmail.com

"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"

-T.S. Eliot

battle record:

7-0-0

Added (01/May/09, 5:47 Pm)
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.... You faggot ass bitch!

ohh so asking questions about religion/God or posting science/evolutionary videos are a blow against theists ?? if you didn't observe these discussions occur when some people make ridiculous or even disrespectful statements on these particular threads I've been to many hip hop forums and websites just for scouting i never signed and everybody has religious based discussions and i mean EVERYBODY the things that sets us apart is that we are more inclined towards hip hop activism and social and political activism even our business model is pretty unique so i want to tell you that this kind of discussions will continue because that's what happens when people are interacting and note that it doesn't happen only here in fact things here are very articulate and whit manner some hip hop websites are like wild wild west

not nice out there, u better be lucky u picked the "polite" athiest forum
theres some fucked up nuts out there

I see the effects of certain traditions and you are right, in some cases, they are beneficial. But there are many traditions that wear out because they become irrelevant to the times. Take for instance Christmas. It's a very long tradition, but is it sincere anymore? No. All it is a bunch of mindless materialistic consumerism that feeds the corporations that destroy us. But that's just one example. Every holiday is practically the same way though. Other instances, blacks calling each other nigga. We all know that's no good. There are countless traditions that are passed down mindlessly, and I guess I have a problem with many of them because they are rooted in religion. But yes there are some good traditions. But I am almost certain that many traditions pass down ignorance in many parts of the world. Let me explain how this is so. Tradition is basically the passing down of a way of life. But the problem begins here. Some ways of life become obsolete, and therefore they have to try to adapt the tradition to be relevant to the times. And it is here where the tradition loses its soul, because it is no longer as beautiful as it once was. And for the traditions that don't try to adapt, well that's plain to see, they pass down a way of life in an incompatible world. So don't get me wrong, I do see the societal value of tradition. But the problem is that traditions don't and can't last. If they do somehow last, you will come to see them as not what they used to be, and that's when people complain.

You see Pen, there is a problem with Native traditionalism. We don't want to be stereotyped, yet we set up these pow wows that make us look exactly like the stereotype that we wish to avoid. No other culture dresses up in archaic clothing and practices archaic rituals. It doesn't do much to help break the stereotype. Now it is fine to maintain tradition, but only in the form of understanding. I do not see it useful to practice the tradition. However, I do see it as useful to learn the tradition and understand the knowledge you have of it. If each culture understands their past traditions, then each culture will naturally be set apart in the mind, but function in a united world of relevant action. This will maintain culture, so we can avoid the blending that Erik was talking about.

Furthermore, current traditions are fine. As long as they are relevant to our time then sure, keep them alive. But once they expire, let'em go.

Now Erik you were talking about racial/cultural blending which is an interesting topic to me. Objectively, I do see it as ideal. Subjectively, it would be tragic.

I see it okay objectively because it would remove a lot of unavoidable tension in the world. My ideal world is a people all the same without superstition. Plain and simple.

Oh yeah, believe me, this site is quite polite compared to others. Other sites will straight up ban you if you disagree with the mods. Many forums are full of rude assholes with no focus.

This is something you need to understand Pen. No one is talking down to anyone. The only reason I can imagine you feel "talked down to" is because you feel the argument your opponents present feel large and powerful. Is that so? If this isn't how you think you feel, then you are just paranoid. You should have enough confidence in your argument as to not feel "talked down to"/intimidated by your opponent. If you aren't confident in your argument the why the hell are you arguing? But perhaps that's not the case. Perhaps you just feel genuinely rudely "talked down to." Well let me explain that. When two people debate, they each have an argument in which they are confident, perhaps even passionate (if so even better, because passion drives opinion). Resultingly, the two arguments collide. Now if both debaters are equally confident in their argument then, virtually they are like to charging rams gaining no ground. Now lets say perhaps one seems to be losing ground. This happens for one of two reasons: either one debater is losing confidence in his argument due to the strength of his opponent, or the opponent is systematically breaking down the losing debater’s argument, so it then becomes obvious by pure logic who is shrinking. Now when this shrinking happens, the frustrated debater feels "talked down to." Although, I would presume that you would say that this is not the case for you. So why do you feel talked down to? A bystander of the debate would not see what you see. They would not see the "talking down," unless your opponent was obliviously obvious (but if that was the case, he wouldn't be debating right, because in a sophisticated debate, only relevant points are in motion, not verbal attacks suggesting superiority). Anyways, as I was saying, a bystander would not see this condescendence occurring, because they would be observing a debate of logic. So therefore objectively there is no condescendence. But subjectively there is in your opinion. Well if it's not for the reasons above and it is subjective by your eye, does the condescendence truly exist? Anyway, let me further clarify my point. What I'm getting at is that when to people debate, to each other (subjectively) they both feel "talked down to." It's apart of the game. Two people have contrasting views. One person feels that the other person just doesn't understand the opposing view. So therefore they break it down and try to explain in hopes of the other person coming to an understanding of it. It may appear as condescendence, but I assure you it's not. It's just a subjective issue.

When all of the above is the case (which it is here in this thread), no one is talking down to you. Now it would be different if I or someone else was like, "now listen up here old man. I'm sick and tired of your senselessness." But see no one says shit like that because we do have the respect that you claim we don't. I wrote a big long explanation as to why I can respect someone, but not respect their beliefs/argument/ideas. It was that whole "you are a representative of a belief system" comment that I wrote (in the other religion thread, -now deleted).

By the way, no one is taking jabs at you. We are taking "jabs" at your beliefs at the most. You may not realize it, but your beliefs are not exclusive only to you. You share the belief that thousands of others share. It all comes back to that belief representative shit. So it is nothing personal, honestly. It would be different if we referred to you as the "old guy" on the site or some stupid childish shit like that. That would be taking personal jabs at you. But again, we don't do that.

I will admit to the possibility of a creator, so I'm not straight up atheist. I feel about this a lot like you do Erik. But see, if someone says they believe in a god/creator, that is completely fine. That is absolutely fine and arguably justified. What I'm not fine with is when people try to put truth in the bible. There may be a creator, but he is nothing like what this world describes. Once you separate the bible from God, then you separate the faith from the philosophy. I'm fine with philosophy. I'm not fine with faith. Philosophy operates on justifiable principles. Faith doesn't. As long as the argument is reasonable then it's fine with me if it differs from mine.

It has nothing to do with being like the white man. Just live the best you can within what your enviroment allows and only do what is productive to your livelyhood. It has nothing to do with living like someone different than you. It has to do with living reasonably. Because that is pure. And that is the way people once lived. That is the only thing present in the past that will remain relevant for the future, and all time.

I understand Erik when you guys accuse him of being condescending. I have alot to say and I attempt to say it clearly so that everyone understands. I'm sorry if that comes off condescending. How do you want me to sound? What, you want street talk? That sure as hell wouldn't be very clear.

Let me know if I'm still not clear.