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Religion: Real or Fake
I_Guy Date: Tuesday, 21/Apr/09, 1:52 AM | Message # 1

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What began this thread:
http://realhiphop4ever.ucoz.com/forum/12-1890-1

Religious folks need to give up.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
Menace Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 9:16 AM | Message # 361

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so it seems my man Sodr2 goes around my argument ?? i want an answer Sodr2 and i guarantee you the psychology of God is an issue NEVER EVER answered by the church or any religious figures no religious figure debunked it nobody seems to touch it but i want your view on it psychology is the study of the mind it's an ancient study that has nothing to do whit modern day science so you can't trash it as "evil"

ohhh and i want this thread back in the rant forum look at the past comments in this thread are really disrespectful we don't need this here


s0dr2 Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 12:35 PM | Message # 362

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Quote (I_Guy)

No, their work is misinterpreted.

how is their work misinterpreted?!!? THIS is your counter argument for my explanation of why the Bible's God exists? please elabourate instead of one sentence so i dont have to keep on replying...you yourself said:

Quote (I_Guy)
So my basic question is (just to give me a place to start): How do you know the Bible's God exists?

it seems like you want to start nothing....and that video you showed me is for plain humor and doesnt serve as an argument for anything

Quote (Menace)
Sodr2 why are you not replying to my argument ?? i am not trying to start nothing but as maybe you know for a non-believer I've pretty much studied the bible and i find it shocking for a divine being to have such a psychology

im not ignoring anything, it was just to organize the discussions a bit, i said i'll quote you after i was done with i-guy's question about why the God of the Bible exists...but i havent yet received a response (or at least a decent one)......(and i dont trash any argument as "evil" i dont know where you're getting that from)

and i dont care if you move this to the rant forum, (even though it shouldnt)...im not aware if i posted any disrespectful comments, i know others have.....but i dont think some of you want this in the knowledge/political just because of "disrespectful comments" but rather you disregard religion in general

btw i-guy your number of posts is 666 LOL
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ok menace ill move onto you

Added (28/May/09, 12:35 Pm)
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Quote (Menace)
i will bring a solid argument against the existence of the biblical God in the bible God's psychological pattern is the same as ours we learned in school in psychology classes that if one has the same psychological pattern as the rest this one is bound to the same psychological problems as the rest so let's make the psychological pattern of the biblical God , he is angry he is jealous he loves he hates his psychological pattern is almost like ours so he's bound to have the same emotional and psychological problems as we humans have so trough logic a divine being can't have such problems and such emotions because he is DIVINE he has a DIVINE consciousness but in the biblical case he doesn't have such consciousness in fact on a psychological level he's just a dude from New York that has some "superpowers" LOL that is a good example

Quote (Menace)
Quote (sodr2)
let me get this straight....in order to be divine BEING.....you cant have any emotions or feelings? how could something alive that has consciousness exist without emotion?

if you actually study psychology this patterns occur when one doubts himself and his abilities a DIVINE being that knows the highest echelons of consciousness can't fall for emotions like hatred or even love because he is DIVINE that given he reached the highest forms of serenity by being DIVINE so he inherently can't fall for such emotions by falling for such emotions psychological studies shows us that one can't be divine at all in fact by his psychological pattern we deduce that this biblical God is man made because it incorporates everything from our psychology even the bad side of our psychology and even if this biblical God exists there is a high probability he is not perfect at all



"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain



Message edited by sodr2 - Thursday, 28/May/09, 12:32 PM
Lord_Meth Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 12:43 PM | Message # 363

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I_GuyDate: Thursday, Today, 2:08 Am | Message # 482

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LAMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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s0dr2 Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 2:44 PM | Message # 364

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Quote (sodr2)
he is angry he is jealous he loves he hates his psychological pattern is almost like ours so he's bound to have the same emotional and psychological problems as we humans have

im still trying to grasp this argument 100%.....

what's wrong with having emotions as a divine being again?

Quote (sodr2)
if you actually study psychology this patterns occur when one doubts himself and his abilities

God never doubts himself/abilities

are you saying that if one is divine, he should not fall into emotions?


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Menace Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 3:08 PM | Message # 365

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God never doubts himself/abilities

he does because he has the same psychology as ours there is no distinct psychology it's just one universal psychology

Quote (sodr2)
God never doubts himself/abilities

are you saying that if one is divine, he should not fall into emotions?

yes i repeat myself if you actually study psychology this patterns occur when one doubts himself and his abilities a DIVINE being that knows the highest echelons of consciousness can't fall for emotions like hatred or even love because he is DIVINE that given he reached the highest forms of serenity by being DIVINE so he inherently can't fall for such emotions by falling for such emotions psychological studies shows us that one can't be divine at all in fact by his psychological pattern we deduce that this biblical God is man made because it incorporates everything from our psychology even the bad side of our psychology and even if this biblical God exists there is a high probability he is not perfect at all. in more simpler words emotions.

In more simpler words emotions are part of the human mind if he has the same psychology as us he inherently is doomed to the same psychological problems as us and as i said understanding the highest echelon of consciousness and falling for primitive emotions as love and hate is RIDICULOUS he can't be so divine if he loves and hates it's contradictory to the principle of supreme consciousness emotions are part of the basic human mind if he is so divine he elevated to the next stage so submitting to such basic instincts is kinda ridiculous


eboyd Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 5:14 PM | Message # 366

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Quote (sodr2)
what's wrong with having emotions as a divine being again?

when God pertains to such emotions as Menace mentioned like jealousy for example it negates not only God's omnibenevolence, but his perfection in general.


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Menace Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 5:22 PM | Message # 367

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Quote (eboyd)
when God pertains to such emotions as Menace mentioned like jealousy for example it negates not only God's omnibenevolence, but his perfection in general.

YES !! YES !!! straight on the point !! i studied this in Romanian and it's so hard to explain i get lost some time in between words LOL biggrin


I_Guy Date: Thursday, 28/May/09, 6:21 PM | Message # 368

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Quote (sodr2)
btw i-guy your number of posts is 666 LOL

aha

Quote (sodr2)
how is their work misinterpreted?!!? THIS is your counter argument for my explanation of why the Bible's God exists? please elabourate instead of one sentence so i dont have to keep on replying...you yourself said:

The "evidence" (prophecies) you showed me are not valid because they are vulnerable to misinterpretation, and therefore any truth that there may be, is smeared by the hand of the interpreter. I don't want to go into this because this is away from psychology and will be explained when we move Epistemology and Philology.

Quote (sodr2)
it seems like you want to start nothing....and that video you showed me is for plain humor and doesnt serve as an argument for anything

Yes it was for humor, but it makes obvious the errors of god's psychology, by having human emotions.

Let's say perhaps the bible's god does somehow have human emotions. We were created in his image right? So it would make sense for us to have his weaknesses (emotions). Now if we were made in his image, then everyday you can see the error in his ways through the error in human ways. This is now contradictory because if god in fact has emotion, then he will make the same catastrophic mistakes that humans do, therefore contradicting his perfection. He is supposed to be perfect, right? Yet we were made in his image? Why aren’t we perfect and why has he created imperfection? If he is perfect, he should only be able to create perfection, right? But let's say he is sooo perfect that he can transcend to create imperfection. Why would anyone want to create imperfection?

This drives the question further. Why create anything at all? Why create so much universe for only one small colony of life? Why create life that must butcher and slaughter other forms of life just for a means to survive. I mean think about it, it's quite demented. Creatures having to rip each others guts out, tear the flesh of each others throats wide open and spill the blood through their teeth, chewing and crunching and pulling apart each other just to survive, all in pain. Why must creature exist in such agony? What the fuck was your god thinking???? Surely there is a better way? One could almost think this world was designed by the devil himself. So if your god exists, he must be an evil one. There's is infinite ways all of this could have been done better. Explain that shit to me. You have to imagine if you were going to create a universe. Would you want this shit happening to your creations? If you do, well, there is something terribly wrong there.

The mere fact that he created imperfection makes him imperfect. The fact that he destroys and kills makes him imperfect, because a "perfect" thinking mind would never do that, it would find another way. The great flood destroyed the worlds people because they were "evil" by god's standards. How could they all be evil? If they were all evil, wouldn't they have in one way or another wiped themselves out? Now let's change it, let's say they weren't actually evil, perhaps they simply didn't worship god. Somehow that is justification for murdering them, and all the innocent creature of the earth? Imagine if that shit happened today. These actions by God really blurs the value of life.

Furthermore, why give man the ability to do evil? Because if God is perfect and if evil cannot exist within perfect, then why would he create it or allow it to exist?

Now from another angle: if God wanted us to believe in him, why didn't he make it absolutely clear so that humans would never question. He is all-knowing right? So he should have known that humans would someday question him. Why not clearly state in the bible all the answers that we seek? It wouldn't hurt anything. It would actually make alot more people believe (which is his overall goal). There would be alot more scientists believing in religion, I can guarantee.

And again like in one of the previous videos, if the people who don't know about the bible's god are supposed to be saved later in heaven, then why do we talk about god at all? If none of us knew about him, then wouldn't we all go to heaven to be saved later? Also, won't the family and friends that end up in hell prevent a person from being happy in heaven? But heaven is the ultimate bliss? How can these two aspect coexist?

Moreover, isn't it quite convenient that a heaven and a hell exists. If you were to ask anyone what they want most (that isn't material) they would say, happiness, love, no stress, = bliss essentially, an ideal paradisiac. The human mind naturally seeks this utopia. Wow what'd'ya'know, heaven happens to be that. And what does a human being fear most, hatred, pain, torture, displeasure. And wow, what'd'ya'know hell happens to be that. How convenient. What the mind wants, the mind thinks it will get, if it is stupid enough to believe its own fantasies. These concepts of utopia and dystopia are classic ideas of primitive men who lived in the middle, who seek the best and dread the worst. Clear figments in the human psyche.

And now we get the classic question, where did god come from? Well why not just remove him and simplify the question to where did the universe come from?

And sure a religious person may say that he has done all of this to "test our faith." Why? Why do we exist to be tested?

There are too many questions like this for the bible's god to make sense.

God is not responsible for all of this, human imagination is. This is all the result of imperfect nature, not a perfect God. Because if he was perfect the "design" would be much greater. The bible's god's design is a very bad one, and is a point in itself for questioning the esistance of god. We have human beings who could imagine a better "design" than what the bible's God has.

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on more if you want me to. There are literally hundreds of points like this, little logical and obscure points that conclude alot.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
EmSeeD Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 0:27 AM | Message # 369

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when God pertains to such emotions as Menace mentioned like jealousy for example it negates not only God's omnibenevolence, but his perfection in general.

Israel was God's chosen people, in the old testament, Israel are like the bride and God is like the Groom, when Israelites worshipped another god its like they're cheating on him, if your wife was cheating on you you'd have a right to be jealous.


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eboyd Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 2:27 AM | Message # 370

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Israel was God's chosen people, in the old testament, Israel are like the bride and God is like the Groom, when Israelites worshipped another god its like they're cheating on him, if your wife was cheating on you you'd have a right to be jealous.

that's absurd dude. i usually agree with you but this is uncharacteristic of you bro. just think. favoritism, jealousy, condemnation.... does that sound like the attributes of "perfection," if there even is such a thing (which, btw, i don't believe there is)??? do you believe in God's perfection? if you do, how the fuck is would that be perfection? God, according to Christians, pertains to the four omnis: omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. this means he is good at all times (a fickle concept in itself, but if it is real, jealousy definitely is not compatible with it), is powerful over all things, knows everything and is everywhere at once. for this reason, perfection is inherently impossible for he would have to be acting in such a manner that he would be perfect at all times and as he is omnipresent he is everything at once (this is inevitable. if he isn't he is not omnipresent) so he would have to act as everything at all times and act perfectly as everything and since we are imperfect and everything around us is imperfect, God cannot be perfect. it is a difficult concept to understand, but if you think about it you will understand it.


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EmSeeD Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 4:22 AM | Message # 371

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a righteous jealousy isn't imperfection, its was justified

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ill Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 5:35 AM | Message # 372

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but if hes perfect why would they worship someone else...

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I_Guy Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 5:42 AM | Message # 373

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so he would have to act as everything at all times and act perfectly as everything and since we are imperfect and everything around us is imperfect, God cannot be perfect

I affirm.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
Menace Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 9:19 AM | Message # 374

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a righteous jealousy isn't imperfection, its was justified

it's part of the same human psychology a divine being that reached the highest forms of serenity doesn't even need worshipers it's absurd Emseed whit all my respects i don't wanna offend you don't get me wrong but it's simply absurd and it's a huge hole in logic here Emseed i agree whit Erik it's a difficult concept to understand but when you look in it and in the human psychology it really doesn't fit at all maybe there is a God hell i don't wanna go in age old polemics but the biblical representation of God is very contradictory


TheWatcher Date: Friday, 29/May/09, 9:59 AM | Message # 375

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Quote (Menace)
it's part of the same human psychology a divine being that reached the highest forms of serenity doesn't even need worshipers it's absurd Emseed whit all my respects i don't wanna offend you don't get me wrong but it's simply absurd and it's a huge hole in logic here Emseed i agree whit Erik it's a difficult concept to understand but when you look in it and in the human psychology it really doesn't fit at all maybe there is a God hell i don't wanna go in age old polemics but the biblical representation of God is very contradictory

I don't know nearly enough about the Bible but as far as I know, God created humans and was extremely proud of his creation. Perhaps even more than when he created his angels (which is why Lucifer got upset). I can't remember but I think he got into a fight with Lucifer about humans and then he (God) decided to give humans free will to show hat they could still be good and still believe even without living with God himself (like his angels did). So that's why he wants people to believe in him. Either way as I've said before I believe in God but I also believe that a lot of stuff may have been lost in translation or what ever (as for an example there are what, 3 religions that believe in the same god but have some huge differences still, well probably more than 3).

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