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Evidence For God?
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| EmSeeD |
Date: Saturday, 31/Oct/09, 8:14 PM | Message # 136 |
Heads
Posts: 11464
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Quote (eboyd) Does this long ass story I mentioned make this book any more valid than the bible? people wouldn't just take in your added portions, its like the other gospels that aren't included in the bible today, we don't just find those gospels like the gospel of Mary Magdaline and instantly believe it and say its the gospel that it fills in the holes
http://chirbit.com/emseed
http://youtube.com/siwooot
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 31/Oct/09, 8:42 PM | Message # 137 |
Heads
Posts: 13145
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Oh really???? What about the HUNDREDS of forgeries and misinterpretations of the bible found in every printed version in existence that even theologians do not deny?! And even if you want to deny the forgeries by saying "those are old", some of the misinterpretations are no more than 100 years old and it is quite possible they were purposefully misinterpreted. And lastly, if you don't think people will buy into it, just look at the book of mormon.... All you have to do is let time pass and people will believe it at some point. I rest my case.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| eboyd |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 2:03 AM | Message # 138 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (eboyd) I actually wrote a poem about this. It's posted on the site somewhere. I'll have to find it and share it here. The shadow
That one casts
Will fade as he passes. If he carves his name
Into the sky
His mark will be inscribed
Forever in it's place.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 11:37 AM | Message # 139 |
OGs
Posts: 2772
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Quote (Menace) what kind of fucked analogy is that ?? so if my kid and his kid and his kid and his kid and his kid talks about the same shit generation after generation then that shit is true no ?? ever heard of myths handed down generation by generation ?? Zoroastrianism the first monotheistic religion still resists today so then this 4000 year old monotheistic religion is lying ? and take into notice the only man in the bible that archeologist's and historians SPECULATE that existed is Jesus rest of the prophets in Christianity have no historical basis in fact Moses describes Ramses II as pharaoh in the exodus but the exodus as described in the bible is not set in the actual reign of Ramses II this shows how diluted the bible is because it has so many authors pieces don't actually fit
you get your theology from comic books a kid talking about pokemon (for eg. blastoise, typhlosion, etc) and a kid TALKING ABOUT A POKEMON REVEALED TO HIM are two different things... and sure one or two kids may be lying, but not a whole bunch of kids ever since hundreds of years before Christ till this day where people have experienced miracles
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
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| Menace |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 12:04 PM | Message # 140 |
Heads
Posts: 6764
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no my theology is not weak your understanding of human beings is pretty weak you base your arguments on miracles and circular reasoning . Ever heard of something called Cultural Genes my friend ?? you know Christianity as any religious or social behavioral aspect of human life is passed down in these cultural genes it doesn't make Christianity special because it survived. read man because you really need it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 12:25 PM | Message # 141 |
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OGs
Posts: 2772
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Quote (Menace) you base your arguments on miracles and circular reasoning
you never replied to my argument about miracles, and please point out (quoting me) how i use circular reasoning... and i dont have time to read all that, but a child of Christian parents raised in some islamic home will not be christian, its not their genes, its their culture... your point?
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
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| Menace |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 2:33 PM | Message # 142 |
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Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (sodr2) you never replied to my argument about miracles, you can't base your arguments on miracles in a philosophical/historical debates miracles are popular folklore Quote (sodr2) but a child of Christian parents raised in some islamic home will not be christian, its not their genes, its their culture... your point? it's more complicated then that when you have time read it
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| eboyd |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 2:44 PM | Message # 143 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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His point is that how is it possible that your specific God exists when there is ample scientific evidence proving that religion is handed down culturally and if you are a member of a culture that pretty unanimously follows one religion, you have a very high chance of following that religion and a very low chance of following another religion and this does not make any exceptions for a specific religion. How do you know, even presupposing that God exists, that he doesn't despise the idea of institutionalized religion as a whole and maybe he just wants people to lead good lives regardless of what they believe and we will all join him in heaven? Oh, that's right, the bible says that your institutionalized religion is the right one! Well, what about the Koran, which says that Allah is the true God? What about the Supreme Mathematics of the Nation of Islam that says that Wallace Fard Muhammad is God? What about the Supreme Mathematics and Alphabet of the Nation of Gods and Earths that says the Asiatic Blackman is God? What about the religions that claim Attis, Addonis, Osiris, Horus, Zeus, Poseidon, Jupiter, Krishna, etc., are God? Are they all wrong because their Gods prescribe to a different name than the generic term and your God is the only one that claims his name is just "God"? Are the other Gods wrong for claiming that they are the true God? Would I be wrong to claim that everyone has it wrong and all those names are just different people's perspectives on the same being but that they are all correct that he exists? And if we can narrow it down to that, now there need not be any animosity or hatred between different religions and we can then begin to finally work on the real question: is there a God or is there not? And don't even try to come at me with the "but Christianity has more credibility that (X) religion because of (Y). We have already thoroughly demolished the living shit out of that argument.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Sunday, 01/Nov/09, 7:21 PM | Message # 144 |
Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (sodr2) If you were talking about the Book of Mormon, or the Koran with only one author, you would have a point, but the Bible has several authors (written throughout several centuries) all pointing to God.
Including all of the gospels cut out of the bible long ago? How did they determine which gospels were the legitimate ones? By accepting only the ones that agree with a particular agenda or ideology? Why do you think the Roman Empire persecuted Christianity for so long? Not because the Romans had gods of their own (which by the beginning of the first millennium, these gods weren't even really considered to actually exist by the Roman people, their polytheistic religion was really an instrument of cultural socio-political unity). The Roman government saw Christianity as a threat to the empire's unity, but most importantly they saw it as a "deadly superstition." So it is clear that even back then, the problems that we are discussing here was already recognized. These problems has been apparent since the birth of Christianity. I am now a Jarvicist.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 7:52 AM | Message # 145 |
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OGs
Posts: 2772
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People going to a church once a week is a threat to the Roman empire? Okay... Quote (eboyd) His point is that how is it possible that your specific God exists when there is ample scientific evidence proving that religion is handed down culturally and if you are a member of a culture that pretty unanimously follows one religion, you have a very high chance of following that religion and a very low chance of following another religion and this does not make any exceptions for a specific religion.
There is no reason for a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, etc not to come to Christianity. And anyone who has never heard of Christ will be judged by their actions while on earth. Quote (eboyd) How do you know, even presupposing that God exists, that he doesn't despise the idea of institutionalized religion as a whole and maybe he just wants people to lead good lives regardless of what they believe and we will all join him in heaven?
Didn't Jesus condemn the Pharisees for following their traditions instead of 'leading good lives'? Quote (eboyd) Oh, that's right, the bible says that your institutionalized religion is the right one! Well, what about the Koran, which says that Allah is the true God? What about the Supreme Mathematics of the Nation of Islam that says that Wallace Fard Muhammad is God? What about the Supreme Mathematics and Alphabet of the Nation of Gods and Earths that says the Asiatic Blackman is God? What about the religions that claim Attis, Addonis, Osiris, Horus, Zeus, Poseidon, Jupiter, Krishna, etc., are God?
There can be several theories for let's say the origins of the universe... it doesn't mean they're all wrong. So what you gotta do is look at each one individually. For eg, how can an stone idol, made of molecules and the hands of man, be considered a god? Or how do you consider a religion with multiple gods to be true? God by definition is a being of which there is nothing equal or greater, so if there were gods, one eventually would ascend and dominate.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
Message edited by sodr2 - Monday, 02/Nov/09, 7:55 AM
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| Menace |
Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 11:21 AM | Message # 146 |
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Heads
Posts: 6764
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Quote (sodr2) People going to a church once a week is a threat to the Roman empire? Okay... Christianity was a threat to the religious pluralism in the Roman Empire. Christianity is an absolutist religion while in the Roman Empire there was a high degree of religious pluralism it's like the battle between secularists and theocrats today. That's why Christianity later was adopted as a state religion because in merging Christianities absolutism the Emperor created what we know today as absolute monarchism.
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| eboyd |
Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 12:56 PM | Message # 147 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (sodr2) There is no reason for a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, etc not to come to Christianity. And anyone who has never heard of Christ will be judged by their actions while on earth. Apparently the problem here is that you are socio-culturally inept and ignorant. I think you may not understand what goes into and lies behind the social and cultural reasoning for following a specific religion. Watch the documentary "Jesus Camp" on YouTube. That is a documentary that follows an evangelical Christian children's camp and shows their extreme indoctrination of children, not only focusing on their belief in God, but also other things that seem to inherently form around that belief such as political views. At such a young age, these kids' minds are like sponges as I'm sure you have heard before. The same indoctrination, only ten fold, occurs in Islamic countries, Hindu regions in India, Seikh regions in India, Jewish nations, etc., and so even if Christianity were the rational choice, they cannot come to believe it because a disposition towards their religion is bred so deep into them that they think Christianity is wrong, even though they have heard of it. It just so happens, however, that when presented with an education in reasoning and an unbiased education of all religions, most children tend towards atheism, agnosticism or a unique view that doesn't involve religion of any kind. Very few, especially if they are well educated, will lean toward any religion, including Christianity. There are exceptions here and there but they are rare. Quote (sodr2) Didn't Jesus condemn the Pharisees for following their traditions instead of 'leading good lives'? Again, you are using circular reasoning. Like I have said many times, do not use what it says in the bible to justify the account in the bible. You need a verifiable source that can be repeatedly tested for validity outside of the bible to be able to verify the bible's account of something that happened. There are no verifiable accounts of Jesus or God ever having existed in the first place let alone speaking to people and condemning people for nonbelief or belief in "false idols". Quote (sodr2) There can be several theories for let's say the origins of the universe... it doesn't mean they're all wrong. So what you gotta do is look at each one individually. For eg, how can an stone idol, made of molecules and the hands of man, be considered a god? Or how do you consider a religion with multiple gods to be true? God by definition is a being of which there is nothing equal or greater, so if there were gods, one eventually would ascend and dominate. Idk if you realize this, but 2,500, maybe 3,00 years ago if you existed and were to outwardly express your Judaism (you would be a Jew back then and not a Christian since Christianity didn't exist yet) you would have been put to death for being a heretic and an atheist. Anyone who only believed in one God apparently didn't believe in enough Gods and was considered a heretic and an atheist. Belief in God has evolved since then. Now atheism requires a belief in no Gods, though people are still killed for this belief to this day from all religions, including Christianity. Belief in God doesn't require that it be only one. Several Gods may even be a stronger argument. It doesn't presuppose that their Gods are perfect and science has shown time and time again that perfection is only a concept that has no real application. It doesn't presuppose any omnis because if you have many Gods they would have to work cooperatively to create our imperfect world we live in. And if you don't believe it is imperfect, all you have to do is look around to see it. Millions of people are born every day with different degrees of mutations from imperfect DNA, only a few of which stand a chance to leading to a permanent genetic change through natural selection. Most will lead to minor impediments and some will even lead to serious malfunctions in daily life for the deformed individual. Diseases like cancer, AIDS, etc., can be either obtained through life experiences or genetics and lead to terrible suffering and, usually, death. A quick observation of your surroundings will show that the world is not perfect. So by that regard, a polytheistic religious account of reality may be more viable and reasonable than that of a monotheistic religion.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:13 PM | Message # 148 |
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OGs
Posts: 2772
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Quote (eboyd) Apparently the problem here is that you are socio-culturally inept and ignorant. I think you may not understand what goes into and lies behind the social and cultural reasoning for following a specific religion. Watch the documentary "Jesus Camp" on YouTube. That is a documentary that follows an evangelical Christian children's camp and shows their extreme indoctrination of children, not only focusing on their belief in God, but also other things that seem to inherently form around that belief such as political views. At such a young age, these kids' minds are like sponges as I'm sure you have heard before. The same indoctrination, only ten fold, occurs in Islamic countries, Hindu regions in India, Seikh regions in India, Jewish nations, etc., and so even if Christianity were the rational choice, they cannot come to believe it because a disposition towards their religion is bred so deep into them that they think Christianity is wrong, even though they have heard of it.
I've seen that documentary... and I think that kind of indoctrination will give them that disposition towards their religion, but it won't make it impossible (when they grow up) for them to consider other religions. It may make it hard for many of them to convert, but they have full access to know about Christianity, read the Bible, etc, and some do convert. Quote (eboyd) It just so happens, however, that when presented with an education in reasoning and an unbiased education of all religions, most children tend towards atheism, agnosticism or a unique view that doesn't involve religion of any kind.
Are you saying that intelligence and religiousness are inversely proportional? Quote (eboyd) You need a verifiable source that can be repeatedly tested for validity outside of the bible to be able to verify the bible's account of something that happened.
I am not verifying any account from the Bible of actually happening. You said: Quote (eboyd) How do you know, even presupposingthat God exists, that he doesn't despise the idea of institutionalized religion as a whole and maybe he just wants people to lead good lives regardless of what they believe and we will all join him in heaven? Added (02/Nov/09, 3:10 Pm)
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Quote (eboyd) Several Gods may even be a stronger argument. It doesn't presuppose that their Gods are perfect and science has shown time and time again that perfection is only a concept that has no real application. It doesn't presuppose any omnis because if you have many Gods they would have to work cooperatively to create our imperfect world we live in. And if you don't believe it is imperfect, all you have to do is look around to see it. Millions of people are born every day with different degrees of mutations from imperfect DNA, only a few of which stand a chance to leading to a permanent genetic change through natural selection. Most will lead to minor impediments and some will even lead to serious malfunctions in daily life for the deformed individual. Diseases like cancer, AIDS, etc., can be either obtained through life experiences or genetics and lead to terrible suffering and, usually, death. A quick observation of your surroundings will show that the world is not perfect. So by that regard, a polytheistic religious account of reality may be more viable and reasonable than that of a monotheistic religion.
Not bad of an argument... But something imperfect, I would have to say had a beginning, and that doesn't really classify as a god to me. Added (02/Nov/09, 3:13 Pm)
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Quote (Menace) Christianity was a threat to the religious pluralism in the Roman Empire. Christianity is an absolutist religion while in the Roman Empire there was a high degree of religious pluralism it's like the battle between secularists and theocrats today. That's why Christianity later was adopted as a state religion because in merging Christianities absolutism the Emperor created what we know today as absolute monarchism.
Words I do not understand: - religious pluralism
- absolutist religion
- (absolute) monarchism  Props for your knowledge though... and also for erik and I_guy... what a shame it is I'm the only Christian on here (willing to debate)... up against you guys... the "three horsemen"... maybe I could be the forth? 
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
Message edited by sodr2 - Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:21 PM
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| eboyd |
Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:17 PM | Message # 149 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (sodr2) I've seen that documentary... and I think that kind of indoctrination will give them that disposition towards their religion, but it won't make it impossible (when they grow up) for them to consider other religions. It may make it hard for many of them to convert, but they have full access to know about Christianity, read the Bible, etc, and some do convert. yes, and i explicitly stated that in my response to you. the same could be said for any religion. i know Christians that have converted to Islam, atheists who have converted to Judaism, Jews that have converted to Buddhism, etc. that doesn't change the fact of what the overall stats show. Quote (sodr2) Are you saying that intelligence and religiousness are inversely proportional? no, i'm saying that logic/reason and religion have a tendency to be reversely proportional. there are some brilliant people who have skewed logic. Quote (sodr2) I am not verifying any account from the Bible of actually happening. You said: Quote (eboyd) How do you know, even presupposing that God exists, that he doesn't despise the idea of institutionalized religion as a whole and maybe he just wants people to lead good lives regardless of what they believe and we will all join him in heaven? notice, i did not say "presupposing that Christianity is correct", i said "presupposing God exists". that God may be the Chirstian God, or it could be the deist God who created everything and then abandoned his/her/it's creation.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| s0dr2 |
Date: Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:25 PM | Message # 150 |
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OGs
Posts: 2772
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Quote (eboyd) notice, i did not say "presupposing that Christianity is correct", i said "presupposing God exists". that God may be the Chirstian God, or it could be the deist God who created everything and then abandoned his/her/it's creation.
Okay... well then your question is basically asking which god is the right god. How would I know a deist God's will? How should I know, He would have to be the one who told me... revealed himself to me... like revealed religion...
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
Message edited by sodr2 - Monday, 02/Nov/09, 3:26 PM
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