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Forum moderator: I_Guy, s0dr2, El_Matador  
Vegetarianism
I_Guy Date: Tuesday, 02/Feb/10, 12:25 PM | Message # 166

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Quote (eboyd)
why don't you go have this discussion with a lion then.

A lion has no morality.

Quote (eboyd)
no, it isn't. it may be our moral responsibility to find more humane ways of slaughter, but eating meat is necessary at least for many humans. you can decide not to eat meat all you want. that is your prerogative, but no one is morally obligated to anything of the sort. many, in fact, are nutritionally obligated to eat meat.

It is our moral obligation to investigate alternatives. My point is the necessity of eating meat is not a conclusive conclusion.

Quote (eboyd)
what do you propose as an alternative? lethal injection????

I should have said killing animals when it can be avoided is unethical.

Quote (eboyd)
"Risks of Vegetarianism
Balancing vegetarian food and nutrition is vital to maintaining a healthy vegetarian diet. Strict vegetarians may be at risk of several nutrition deficiencies such as vitamin B-12, riboflavin, zinc, calcium, iron, and essential amino acids such as lysine and methionine. Vegans and vegetarians are also at risk of energy deficiency in the form of calories, particularly in children.

Long-term deficiencies in an inadequate vegetarian diet may lead to the following complications:

* Osteoporosis as a result of a lack of calcium causing bone demineralization
* Rickets in children due to a lack of vitamin D
* Iron-Deficiency Anemia due to low iron storage. One study found that 27% of women and 5% of men who were lacto-ovo-vegetarians had low serum ferritin levels (iron storage)
* Macrocytic Anemia due to vitamin B-12 deficiency. This has been observed in infants breast-fed by mothers who are strict vegetarians
* Emaciation or Slow Growth in vegetarian infants and children

Another issue facing vegetarians is low protein quality based on protein digestibility and amino acid composition. The risk associated with the protein quality of plant foods is based on a lack of certain essential amino acids that are found in natural combinations in animal protein."


All of that can be taken care of by (in order of effectiveness) strategic plant diet, nuts/seeds, seafood, vitamins, and substitutes.

Quote (eboyd)
you make it sound as though we have nowhere near enough knowledge to say either or. that is far from the truth.

The theory is always changing.

Quote (eboyd)
there is a direct correlation between specific health risks and vegetarianism.

There are direct health risks to eating meat.

Quote (eboyd)
again, tell that to a lion.

Lions have no morality.

Quote (eboyd)
i can tell you as someone in this field with an expertise that you don't happen to have specifically on this topic, that is far from the truth. the majority of the worlds top biochemists who specialize in nutrition agree that meat is necessary for a balanced diet. i have personal knowledge of this. my dietician just happens to be one of the world's most renowned nutritional biochemists. he agrees.

Even if certain types of meat are absolutely beneficial, it is still our duty to investigate alternatives. Sadly I doubt that will ever happen.

Also, the way meat is grown nowadays is extremely questionable by all nutritionists (who don't work for the meat companies).


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
I_Guy Date: Tuesday, 02/Feb/10, 12:32 PM | Message # 167

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Quote (eboyd)
ask me this question when there is a meat substitute on the market that is even remotely comparable to actual meat in nutritional value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_analogue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_gluten_%28food%29
http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php


All these dumb asses worrying about taste. Booh-fucking-hoo.

If it was recognized as a moral issue, money would be put into the research.

At least, eating other mammals should be done away with. That's the worst meat to eat anyway. We frown at Asian countries eating cats and dogs. It is no different here. A pig is just like a dog in many ways. (Hilariously, if we eliminate consumption of beef, we'll cut back on global warming.)


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
abanks47 Date: Tuesday, 02/Feb/10, 1:10 PM | Message # 168

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Quote (I_Guy)
And I'm saying it is more than a diet issue. That's why veg heads bitch about it. It's ignorant and arrogant as fuck to say "get the fuck outta here wit dat shit." Slavemaster's in the 1800s would have said "git the fuck outta here with that shit" if someone were to challenge the morality of slavery, because slavery seemed necessary, unstoppable, and convenient.

LOL the biggest kind of laughs one could generate at comparing the veggie struggle to the black slave struggle. CHOICE VS SLAVERY & BONDAGE. Once again CHOICE....CHOICE
HAHAHAHA

Added (02/Feb/10, 1:10 Pm)
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i dont actually care one way or the other, i see benefits to being a veggie T and not and simply choose to continue eating meat since its simpler, easier and much cheaper ATM. just wanted point, that you are on some comedic type shit to compare those 2.

also that joke about whippin people, on the internet people like to get those muscles so i shrug it off but if someone made that comment in front of me out of carelessness like i_guy said would probably take offense to it.


A WELL DRESSED SKELETON SLOWLY CUTS YOUR THROAT.

"I Have No Fear Whatsoever of Anybody or Anything" -Malcolm X

“those who consider themselves the most adamant adherents of “real” hip-hop can also be the least knowledgeable.” –Adilifu Nama; an excert from his perception of Nas’s “Genesis”

J-Breakz Date: Tuesday, 02/Feb/10, 1:26 PM | Message # 169

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Quote (abanks47)
also that joke about whippin people, on the internet people like to get those muscles so i shrug it off but if someone made that comment in front of me out of carelessness like i_guy said would probably take offense to it.

I would take offense too. If the joke was poorly timed.


livin life like some cheesy movie
I_Guy Date: Tuesday, 02/Feb/10, 2:33 PM | Message # 170

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Quote (abanks47)
LOL the biggest kind of laughs one could generate at comparing the veggie struggle to the black slave struggle. CHOICE VS SLAVERY & BONDAGE. Once again CHOICE....CHOICE
HAHAHAHA

Not about a struggle or equality. It's about a moral atrocity.

It's not a vegetarian plight. It is a life plight.

Vegetarians aren't the ones fucked, animals are. Vegetarians point that out. You have failed to see the point, Vegetarians are not equivalent to slaves. Vegetarians are equivalent to slavery abolitionists. The animals are equivalent to slaves. And just as slavemasters were racist, most meat-eaters are speciesist.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
ALCATRAZ Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 3:03 AM | Message # 171

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Quote (I_Guy)
Vegetarians aren't the ones fucked, animals are. Vegetarians point that out. You have failed to see the point, Vegetarians are not equivalent to slaves. Vegetarians are equivalent to slavery abolitionists. The animals are equivalent to slaves. And just as slavemasters were racist, most meat-eaters are speciesist.

Oh god lol.....


"I personally think OBCL2 is better than the original" - Lord Meth

J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 4:02 AM | Message # 172

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Quote (ALCATRAZ)
"Vegetarians are equivalent to slavery abolitionists." - I_Guy

LOL alcatraz is a prick haha


livin life like some cheesy movie
ALCATRAZ Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 3:06 PM | Message # 173

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LOL I couldn't let that post fade into obscurity, had to put it in my sig. I literally laughed out loud when I read that shit.

"I personally think OBCL2 is better than the original" - Lord Meth

abanks47 Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 4:38 PM | Message # 174

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Quote (I_Guy)
Not about a struggle or equality. It's about a moral atrocity.

It's not a vegetarian plight. It is a life plight.

Vegetarians aren't the ones fucked, animals are. Vegetarians point that out. You have failed to see the point, Vegetarians are not equivalent to slaves. Vegetarians are equivalent to slavery abolitionists. The animals are equivalent to slaves. And just as slavemasters were racist, most meat-eaters are speciesist.


how are meat eaters specieist? how? also i like how speciesist isnt even a fuckin word. even the dictionary is telling you posy picking jerks to go fuck yourself LOL.

Animals are not equivalent to salves. at least not the ones we eat. there equivalent to the corn, potatoes and whatever other vegetable that grows. NOT FUCKIN SLAVES. its not that i failed to see the point i was smart enough to sees the point you were trying to make was used in a way that made you look like a fuckin smug jerk; like most vegeterians. once again you are CHOOSING to do something. My ancestors yeah they were born into doing something against there will until they died. your move

Added (03/Feb/10, 4:38 Pm)
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Quote (J-Breakz)
I would take offense too. If the joke was poorly timed.

yeah, just the opposite tho, if there was just impeccable timing i might not be able to help but laugh.


A WELL DRESSED SKELETON SLOWLY CUTS YOUR THROAT.

"I Have No Fear Whatsoever of Anybody or Anything" -Malcolm X

“those who consider themselves the most adamant adherents of “real” hip-hop can also be the least knowledgeable.” –Adilifu Nama; an excert from his perception of Nas’s “Genesis”

I_Guy Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 5:01 PM | Message # 175

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Quote (abanks47)
how are meat eaters specieist? how?

We like to imagine that we are absolutely superior to other animals and that we somehow are of higher value.

Quote (abanks47)
also i like how specieist isnt even a fuckin word.

I'm not sure where you are looking? There are entire philosophies on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/speciesist
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/speciesism

Quote (abanks47)
Animals are not equivalent to salves. at least not the ones we eat. there equivalent to the corn, potatoes and whatever other vegetable that grows.

When I say equivalent to slaves I don't mean by their use, I mean by their position in our moral code.

And by the way, actually animals are equivalent to slaves in their use. They are both used as property for profit.

They are simply slaves that we eat and wear (among other things). It's a holocaust, plain and simple.

Quote (abanks47)
the point you were trying to make was used in a way that made you look like a fuckin smug jerk

That's not what your comment revealed. By the way, how?


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 6:34 PM | Message # 176

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Quote (I_Guy)
We like to imagine that we are absolutely superior to other animals and that we somehow are of higher value.

Aren't we imagining that we are superior if we decide not to eat meat for moral reasons but let carnivores kill and eat their prey?


livin life like some cheesy movie
Menace Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 8:10 PM | Message # 177

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Quote (J-Breakz)
Aren't we imagining that we are superior if we decide not to eat meat for moral reasons but let carnivores kill and eat their prey?

Isn't that superiority which makes us different from other species ? Why succumb to primal instincts when we are homo sapiens ?


J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 8:18 PM | Message # 178

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Quote (Menace)
Isn't that superiority which makes us different from other species ? Why succumb to primal instincts when we are homo sapiens ?

So you're saying we are superior to other animals. Why would we be superior?


livin life like some cheesy movie
I_Guy Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 8:46 PM | Message # 179

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Quote (J-Breakz)
Aren't we imagining that we are superior if we decide not to eat meat for moral reasons but let carnivores kill and eat their prey?

I'm saying we tend to think that we are superior in value. But in fact, we have nothing to say that can logically render that true. We do have superior intellect, that can be scientifically proven. We can use this high intellect to everything's advantage. What good is strength if not used to protect the weak?

If we were to do so, everything would benefit. If we don't, the annihilating chaos will continue. We can either help prevent the annihilation or simply have no hand in it. But we should not contribute to it.

However, I am not trying to say that just because we have the ability to do something, that we should do it. I'm simply saying if we have the ability to do something, and we have good reason to do something wherein all things benefit, then it is in all's best interest to do that wise something.

As human beings we defy the force of an annihilating universe. That is the beauty of our nature. We create and construct against the grain of a destructive reality. It is easy to continue this destructive reality in the realities we create. But our demise is in this conduct. Therefore we must elevate to the highest level of logic to undermine the annihilation. Sadly we never do that.

The higher levels of logic conclude we are unjustified in roasting other creatures at all. Assuming we cherish our lives, we have to find an equilibrium to sustain our lives and in doing so we should only do what is needed though a controlled symbiosis. Factory farming animals is not what is needed. It is parasitic.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Wednesday, 03/Feb/10, 9:06 PM | Message # 180

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But you're whole argument has been that we are morally superior to animals when we aren't.

Quote (I_Guy)
If we were to do so, everything would benefit. If we don't, the annihilating chaos will continue.

Yes, let's release the cows into the wild and see how good they do, right? lol There are a lot of animals that would be extinct if we did not farm them and such. So I don't know how they would benefit if we don't mess with them.


livin life like some cheesy movie
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