Hey, if that's how you feel, more power to you. To me, though, it is based on my personal view. I may not have a say in Classical music, but I sure as hell have a say in Hip Hop, an art form that was not made by professionals, but made by poor blacks like myself from the inner city.

And if you really wanna get technical about it, the only reason Rock & Roll has sub-genres is not because of the subject matter, per say, it's because of the way in which the instruments are used. Punk Rock typically is credited with 3 chords or sometimes even less than that. Metal, for the most part, revolves around technical guitar skills, or are some like to call it, "thrashing". The substance of the lyrics has nothing to do with it. I can find conscious rap songs over Dirty South beats. It's not that difficult.

And what happens when these two styles combine? What happens when they cross-pollinate? Then what type of rap is it, Menace? Gangsta-Conscious, Spiritual Hood raps? Please sit down.

is this a red herring argument?

Not at all. I'm simply giving an example to show the ignorance of providing a statement from one man, and passing it off as if the entire hip hop network believes it as fact. It's just not true. In the same way eboyd can make claims that all of his older people thought 2Pac was fake, I can make an identical claim that all of my older people thought Rakim was homosexual. I'm not ducking or dodging any argument.

OK so we must trash all professional music critiques . Hip hop is music after all and can be judged by a professional who has musical training .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#Lyrical_themes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_Rock#Musical_and_lyrical_elements

Document yourself then talk . Not only musically Punk rock and Heavy Metal are different they are LYRICALLY different too . Punk Rock wasn't called the more socially and politically motivated genre then heavy metal for no apparent reason . This can be applied to hip hop too .

Never said that.

Never said it couldn't be. Why U mad, Menace? LOL

Generally, yes. But not in all cases.

There are Punk songs that discuss anal sex and there are Metal songs that promote social justice. So again, what happens when the two cross-pollinate? How would a music 'professional' define that? You worry so much about judging everything that you forget to enjoy the music. It's a big problem with "real" hip hop heads especially.

We are not specifying here we are generalizing . . So you admit that there are crossovers no ? then why can't you admit musical hybrids and subgenres exist within hip hop when such crossovers exist . Its not called musical hybrid for no reason . If you can't admit this then Rage Against the Machine and their fusion called Rap metal its a paradox to you .

Because I'm playing your game. If you want to label a rapper as this sub-genre, what happens when he creates music that is defined by another sub-genre? It's a hypocrisy, in its truest form. That's the easiest way of exposing how silly it is to put social constraints on rappers like that. Leave that sub-genre, hybrid bullshit to the Rock & Roll heads, Rap is not Rock.

Tupac never actually stated that he was the 'Greatest Rapper Alive' or the Greatest of All Time like LL Cool J and Lil Wayne (lmao). Whether he is/was or isn't/wasn't is up to you to judge. He did make some gangsta rap records and some of them I didn't like but as far as I'm concerned the dude has made so much classic material and so many untouchable tracks that I forgive him for any tracks I didn't really like. As for the Tupac vs. someone videos everybody does that, everybody has a favorite rapper and they think they're better than other rappers. I've seen Redman vs Raekwon, Tupac vs this guy, this one vs this guy. Hip Hop is competitive and we're always comparing emcees to each other and although I have my preferences I probably wouldn't say that this one is better than that one because their styles are usually different. I personally think Tupac is one of the greatest of all time, especially when it comes to making heartfelt music, in that area I actually do think he's the greatest no question.

I mainly listen to 1990-1999 stuff but I do have at least some albums (Hip Hop) that predate 1990. I don't think you're judging Tupac fairly though by calling him a mere 'Gangsta rapper' as if that was what he was all about though.

For comparison, look at GZA the 'Commercial/Womanizing Rapper' go:

I personally don't think I'm being fair saying that and I love GZA to death but me calling GZA a commercial rapper for doing that track is like you calling Pac a gangsta rapper imo. GZA is one of my favorite emcees of all time and this song is not what he's all about. You can't just single a song out of somebody's career and say that that's what they're all about (look at my post above to see how I feel about Tupac).

Check out KRS One the 'Gangsta Rapper', founder of East Coast Gangsta Rap no less.

I'm sorry man but comparing Lil Wayne to Tupac is ridiculous and saying that "everyone" hated Pac is far from the truth.

You'd be wrong, but he did make some gangsta rap with Dr. Dre even though they didn't officially release it, I guess this makes Rakim a 'Gangsta rapper' too? This is probably getting tired by now but I've got endless examples, you can't just judge an emcee by a song out of their discography and say that that's what they're all about because you know better. FYI Alcatraz none of this was actually directed at you.

I know. If anything your posts were directly aimed at Pensmoke and company. I also liked that you posted the Criminal Minded album cover, one of the first "Gangsta Rap" albums (Pensmoke's definition, not mine) recorded in history. Honestly, I was thinking of going down that route in the argument, but it wouldn't be fair, seeing as how I don't even consider that Gangsta Rap.

To me, there is no difference between Black on Both Sides and Eazy Duz It. They both represent hip hop. Yin and Yang, so to speak.

I gotta set this forum straight, man. I came here expecting elevated debate. What I got was a bunch of pretentious herbs who judge everything as if they created the genre themselves. If people want this forum to thrive, we need to build a foundation of true knowledge and understanding when discussing hip hop. We ain't there yet, but I believe once everyone gets on the same page, the forum will flourish. People are already starting to take notice to this board, let's not scare them away with preconceived notions of what real hip hop is and is not.