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Is Bill Gates a Greedy Bastard?
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 11:19 AM | Message # 91

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Secondly how are my views of responsibility incorrect?

livin life like some cheesy movie
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 11:27 AM | Message # 92

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Quote (eboyd)
the only people arguing that free will exists nowadays are people that have no clue about philosophy and most of which believe in a religious God.

Where did you make that assumption?? I've read debates of free will in physic forums, psychology forums, and no person even mentioned god.
Quote (eboyd)
check my philosophy on the matter above.

...okay, when have I mentioned god? Can you not compare choices for yourself??

Quote (eboyd)
but that's the issue. you are claiming property rights of something that, first of all, even if i agreed with personal property rights, becomes someone else's property as soon as they buy it

To a certain extent, do you ever read those contracts they have you agree to or do you just click agree without reading them?

Quote
secondly, i don't believe in people claiming property. you can say you don't want someone messing with you because you are you. you have a right to yourself. you do not have a right to anything else that exists because it is not in any way a part of you.
This is what I can't agree with. If I spent time and work making something I think it's fair to say it's mine. Just like when you spend time and work on your music it's fair to say it's your music.


livin life like some cheesy movie
TheWatcher Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 12:06 PM | Message # 93

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Free will is the freedom to choose to do whatever you want? We have that, we can try to do whatever we want. I can attempt to fly a space shuttle from NASA if I feel like it but that doesn't mean that NASA won't try to stop me when I do it. I can choose not to get a job, build a raft, sail to some island and go live in the wilderness if I feel like it. If that's against the law that's fine but it's still a possibility and I could do it if I wanted to, it probably wouldn't end too well for me but that's what I could do. I could use my free will to rape other men in prison but at the same time, they have the right to try and resist me which is when I again would use my free will and punch them in the face.
I_Guy Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 12:07 PM | Message # 94

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Quote (J-Breakz)
so i'm confusing free-will with free choice.

Free-choice is an element of freewill. Free-choice is freewill, but freewill is not free-choice. Free-choice breaks down into option-choice (pick this or that) and action-choice (do this or that). Other elements of freewill is free-action (which deals with whether action-alternatives are possible whether they are known or not, and action-ability which asks a person is even has the ability to perform the available alternatives) and free-desires (which deals with creative-desires and visceral-desires). All require will-power (defined as the human system's ability to produce action) and stimuli.

Quote (J-Breakz)
if I get fired from a job because it was replaced from a machine I can either 1. Use the money I have saved to get a better education to return to the job market or 2. Don't do anything and have me and the rest of my family starve. What do you honestly think people are going to choose??

That question is too loaded. For that reason it isn't really answerable. There are too many unforeseen variables. Maybe the person (for whatever reason) didn't save any money. Maybe they fall into hopelessness. Maybe they find a means of living in crime instead of education. Maybe the person doesn't even have a family so there is less of a money burden. Maybe the person hasn't had a sufficient history in academics and they have fallen out of touch with their learning abilities. The list goes on and on. It is simply shortsighted to assume someone can simply get a job.

Quote (J-Breakz)
Where did you make that assumption?? I've read debates of free will in physic forums, psychology forums, and no person even mentioned god.

It's better to read about philosophy from a philosopher's actual writings. There's less confusion except possibly your own.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
TheWatcher Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 12:10 PM | Message # 95

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Quote (J-Breakz)

If people compare the consequences, it's not hard to figure out which choice is better. For example, if I get fired from a job because it was replaced from a machine I can either 1. Use the money I have saved to get a better education to return to the job market or 2. Don't do anything and have me and the rest of my family starve. What do you honestly think people are going to choose?? What sufficient stimuli to get out and go get a job.

3. Fly away and live with your family in the Amazon, you could hunt snakes and feed your family with their venom, it would make them stronger, free will will allow you to do this.

4. Hide in a supermarket and live there when it's closed, free food for you and your family.

5. Steal DJ Premier's beat collection and sell it on ebay.

6. Try and kick Eboyd's ass and rob him.

7. Take Eboyd's car and drive to the mountains in Canada, I'm not sure what you could hunt there though but I hear their healthcare is great.

TheWatcher Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 12:12 PM | Message # 96

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Quote (I_Guy)
That question is too loaded. For that reason it isn't really answerable. There are too many unforeseen variables. Maybe the person (for whatever reason) didn't save any money. Maybe they fall into hopelessness. Maybe they find a means of living in crime instead of education. Maybe the person doesn't even have a family so there is less of a money burden. Maybe the person hasn't had a sufficient history in academics and they have fallen out of touch with their learning abilities. The list goes on and on. It is simply shortsighted to assume someone can simply get a job.

Who says they have to get a job? Free will, it's up to them.

I_Guy Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 12:26 PM | Message # 97

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Quote (TheWatcher)
Who says they have to get a job? Free will, it's up to them.

That's the problem, it is not "up to them." Read my long post I left on the last page if you want to know why.

But sure, they don't "have" to get a job. They will do whatever they are stimulated to do.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 1:49 PM | Message # 98

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Quote (I_Guy)
Maybe the person (for whatever reason) didn't save any money.

There're ways around that.

Quote (I_Guy)
Maybe they fall into hopelessness.

Which is why I say every person is responsible for their own happiness.
Quote (I_Guy)
Maybe they find a means of living in crime instead of education.

What type of crime? crime where there are victims? Well then the person can take them to court and the criminal will realize it's not worth going that route.
Quote (I_Guy)
Maybe the person doesn't even have a family so there is less of a money burden.

Your point? They still have to take care of theirselves...
Quote (I_Guy)
Maybe the person hasn't had a sufficient history in academics and they have fallen out of touch with their learning abilities.
I'm a strong believer that everyone is good at atleast one thing. But let's say there's a person who is not good at anything at all. Why does everyone have to be held back because of that one person? In nature, if there is an animal that isn't good at anything his/her genes no longer spread, I'm not saying the person should die or be killed, and really nobody would starve if they can't actually get a job. That person could always live off the charitable donations of other people. But really, how is that person needed in society? Unless you say he is good at atleast one thing, well then he should delve in that subject he excels in.

Quote (I_Guy)
That's the problem, it is not "up to them."

In someways it is, back to my example of working out and eating healthy. I can compare the choices I have whether that be eating right and working out, which makes me healthy, or not eating right and being lazy, which makes me unhealthy, and choose which one I desire most. Whichever one I desire most I have to accept the consequences of the choice. I don't understand how that thinking is wrong. I'd be happy to hear your opinion using this example.


livin life like some cheesy movie
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 2:28 PM | Message # 99

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If free-choice exists then how is responsibility non-existant?

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I_Guy Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 5:05 PM | Message # 100

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Quote (J-Breakz)
Which is why I say every person is responsible for their own happiness.

I can see you must not have understood what I wrote in my lengthy post.

Quote (J-Breakz)
In someways it is, back to my example of working out and eating healthy. I can compare the choices I have whether that be eating right and working out, which makes me healthy, or not eating right and being lazy, which makes me unhealthy, and choose which one I desire most. Whichever one I desire most I have to accept the consequences of the choice. I don't understand how that thinking is wrong. I'd be happy to hear your opinion using this example.

But you have to understand what in our brain generates motivations and volitions. We have no control over that. If the motivation happens to be low, then the desire is no more than a velleity. The sufficient stimuli must be encountered in order to produce the motivation. The stimuli would come in the form of all kinds of things rather obvious or obscure.

Quote (J-Breakz)
If free-choice exists then how is responsibility non-existant?

Free-choice doesn't exist in the traditional definition, which is what you are thinking of. We make choices, but our choices ARE NOT free. Like I said, there has to be a supreme inner-self guiding choices for there to be "Free" choice. The reality is that atomic particles race around in your head and govern everything that you think and do. Like I said, "We are nature itself. The most mistaken thing to think is that human beings are in control of themselves. We have no inner-eye that escapes nature, or frees our actions by an inner-eye's control. Nature controls itself, there is no eye behind it."

What that means is we shouldn't be naive and think that somehow we are beyond natural laws. You are doing that when you assume free choice or freewill exists. Anything involving free-thinking suffers from the problems I have laid out.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 5:19 PM | Message # 101

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Quote (I_Guy)
But you have to understand what in our brain generates motivations and volitions. We have no control over that. If the motivation happens to be low, then the desire is no more than a velleity. The sufficient stimuli must be encountered in order to produce the motivation. The stimuli would come in the form of all kinds of things rather obvious or obscure.

When people are in social environment, they find that people who are healthy seem to attract more attention from the opposite sex. When people are observing others, they see it's harder for unhealthy people to be physical. When people look at themselves in the mirror, they see how they can improve themselves. etc. etc.

However, they're are people who desire relaxation and delicious (though fattening) foods more than working out and eating healthy.

Neither choice is really bad, it's their decisions; but they need to accept those decisions and know that if they WANT to, they can change. There wasa some period of time where I was stayin up real late everyday, not working out, being lazy blah blah blah, and I was looking like shit. So that gave me motivation to workout everyday, eat healthy, and all that stuff. The problem with society today is that we have welfare programs that promote inefficiency.


livin life like some cheesy movie
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 5:22 PM | Message # 102

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Quote (I_Guy)
Free-choice doesn't exist in the traditional definition, which is what you are thinking of. We make choices, but our choices ARE NOT free. Like I said, there has to be a supreme inner-self guiding choices for there to be "Free" choice. The reality is that atomic particles race around in your head and govern everything that you think and do. Like I said, "We are nature itself. The most mistaken thing to think is that human beings are in control of themselves. We have no inner-eye that escapes nature, or frees our actions by an inner-eye's control. Nature controls itself, there is no eye behind it."

And I'm saying in nature we choose what we desire most.


livin life like some cheesy movie
I_Guy Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 5:53 PM | Message # 103

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Quote (J-Breakz)
here wasa some period of time where I was stayin up real late everyday, not working out, being lazy blah blah blah, and I was looking like shit. So that gave me motivation to workout everyday, eat healthy, and all that stuff.

Right so your experience then became the stimulus to create your response behavior to work out and be healthy. As a side not, something also was a stimulus to you being lazy. So on and so on.

Quote (J-Breakz)
When people are in social environment, they find that people who are healthy seem to attract more attention from the opposite sex. When people are observing others, they see it's harder for unhealthy people to be physical. When people look at themselves in the mirror, they see how they can improve themselves. etc. etc.

However, they're are people who desire relaxation and delicious (though fattening) foods more than working out and eating healthy.


Right, that is the logical conclusions that a brain may make, but the logic alone may or may not necessitate action. It may be the logic alone that becomes the stimulus of the response. But then again there may be other things needed to produce a response to the laziness.

Quote (J-Breakz)
And I'm saying in nature we choose what we desire most.

No, human beings ARE nature. Nature chooses the desires (cognitive reaction processes) that nature has created. You aren't seeing your misconception. So I'll explain it. Philosophy has debated for centuries about the existence of an inner-self and a soul. Most modern philosophers have realized that there is no "soul" essence that religious people speak of. A soul is only used figuratively used to represent our notion that there is an inner-self. The inner-self debate is known as the homunculus problem. The homunculus is essentially an inner-eye or a guiding controller somewhere in our "mind." This way of thinking was ossified primarily by Cartesian Dualism among other philosophers, and some religious ideas. Gilbert Ryle criticized this notion of an inner-self, famously calling it "the ghost in the machine." You are seeing human consciousness as functioning like this:

Above is how most people think of themselves. They think there is their body, and then there is an inner mind that delegates actions. That is a large failure of logic. Because that inner mind would then need its own inner mind, and that inner mind would need an inner mind, and that inner mind would need an inner mind, so on and so on, its an infinite regress. There is no inner-self that is doing the choosing. It is all one functioning couterbalancing system. We just are. I don't know how else to explain it to you right now. It's something very difficult to explain to people who have not been exposed to philosophy about it. You realize people write entire books about it? I don't think I'll get through to you.

The inner-self is an old idea that came when people long ago made assumptions about consciousness due to illusions because vital information about our existence was not available to them. These illusory assumptions may have become pathological memes that have carried through time and passed down generations. But perhaps they are not passed on. Even if they are not, these assumptions may simply by an intuitive reaction that our brains have to its own consciousness. Either way, people can be educated out of these assumptions.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
I_Guy Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 6:32 PM | Message # 104

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But I'd like to address some logical inconsistencies you are having. When we discussed selfishness and greed some time ago, you justified selfishness and greed (aka Capitalism) by saying that it is human nature. What exactly do you mean by human nature? Do you mean instincts? Genes?

By you saying this, you are eliminating personal responsibility from the picture. This runs parallels with the explanation that I give that eliminates personal responsibility.

Although I believe it is false that selfishness is human nature, it is sort of the same idea. The same idea being that people have no control over their behaviors and actions.

Your old argument (about selfishness & human nature) is now logically inconsistent by your current one about freewill. Because by extrapolation, I could say by your reasoning that it is human nature to be lazy, or to be stupid, or to be hopeless. By that reasoning, the jobless people would then not be held personally responsible for not getting a job, and not personally responsible for their own happiness. But of course, all that is bull, just like selfishness and greed being human nature is bull.


We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
J-Breakz Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 7:08 PM | Message # 105

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Quote (I_Guy)

Right, that is the logical conclusions that a brain may make, but the logic alone may or may not necessitate action. It may be the logic alone that becomes the stimulus of the response. But then again there may be other things needed to produce a response to the laziness.

I'm saying if the logic is there, then that should be motivation enough. Once you have the logic then the only excuse you have to eat unhealthy foods and lazy is that you desire to be unhealthy and lazy. But that's their choice, if a person would rather eat unhealthy foods and be lazy I wouldn't force that person to do different. He just has to accept the fact that the reason he is unhealthy is because he chooses live that lifestyle and if he wanted to he can change that.

Quote (I_Guy)
Philosophy has debated for centuries about the existence of an inner-self and a soul.

I don't believe we have souls. How exactly have I made you think that? I believe that every animal has desires and those desires are brought on by knowledge. I've learned there are people richer than me, I've learned that I have to work to become rich. If I don't work hard then I cannot become rich, therefore I'm willing to work hard in order to reach my desires. How is this implying I have a soul exactly? Also, regarding the pic, I don't think that way as you say most people do. I don't remember ever thinking that way really. But people do have a conscience, I don't think that's a soul, it's just because we have a complex brain.

Quote (I_Guy)
But I'd like to address some logical inconsistencies you are having. When we discussed selfishness and greed some time ago, you justified selfishness and greed (aka Capitalism) by saying that it is human nature. What exactly do you mean by human nature? Do you mean instincts? Genes?
I believe that all animals act on their desires. When your body tells the mind that you need food, your mind makes it so you desire food. I have not even read enough about objectivism to even defend it really, I have just read a little and pretty much what they're saying is that everybody acts on their desires. Which I agree with. When you help an old lady cross that street, it's because you desire that person to be safe. You act on that desire.


livin life like some cheesy movie
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