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Is Bill Gates a Greedy Bastard?
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 7:22 PM | Message # 106 |
Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (J-Breakz) I don't believe we have souls. How exactly have I made you think that?
I don't think you believe in a soul. But you are presupposing an inner-self by defending freewill. I simply included the soul because the conception of it is similar to the inner-self. Quote (J-Breakz) I believe that every animal has desires and those desires are brought on by knowledge. I know there are people richer than me, I know that I have to work to become rich. If I don't work hard then I cannot become rich, therefore I'm willing to work hard in order to reach my desires. How is this implying I have a soul exactly?
Maybe not a soul, but an inner-self similarly. Gilbert Ryle puts it like this, "According to the legend, whenever an agent does anything intelligently, his act is preceded and steered by another internal act of considering a regulative proposition appropriate to his practical problem. . . . Must we then say that for the agent's . . . reflections how to act to be intelligent, he must first reflect how best to reflect how to act? The endlessness of this implied regress shows that the application of the appropriateness does not entail the occurrence of a process of considering this criterion." Quote (J-Breakz) Also, regarding the pic, I don't think that way as you say most people do. I don't remember ever thinking that really. But people do have a conscience, I don't think that's a soul, it's just because we have a complex brain.
I don't think you or other people think of themselves exactly as that picture looks. However it reveals the same idea. That people think there is an inner decision maker. The picture is simply a vague representation of the logical fallacy people have. It is a regress argument that presupposes that an intelligent agent would need to will before it could have a will, and think before it could have a thought. Quote (J-Breakz) I believe that all animals act on their desires. When your body tells the mind that you need food, your mind makes it so you desire food. I have not even read enough about objectivism to even defend it really, I have just read a little and pretty much what they're saying is that everybody acts on their desires. Which I agree with. When you help an old lady cross that street, it's because you desire that person to be safe. You act on that desire.
But what motivates their desires? Are they in control of those motivations?
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 7:35 PM | Message # 107 |
Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (I_Guy) "According to the legend, whenever an agent does anything intelligently, his act is preceded and steered by another internal act of considering a regulative proposition appropriate to his practical problem. . . . Must we then say that for the agent's . . . reflections how to act to be intelligent, he must first reflect how best to reflect how to act? The endlessness of this implied regress shows that the application of the appropriateness does not entail the occurrence of a process of considering this criterion."
I don't understand this what is he trying to say that has to do with the scenario I brought up? I am living the way I am living, I have knowledge that there are people who are living better than what I am, I also have knowledge that you need to work to be living the way the rich people are. If I desire to be rich than I am willing to work, and I am motivated by the accomplishments that I make on my way of becoming rich. Are you saying that's a fallacy? The way I've always saw it was Thought -> Action I know there are times where you can act without thinking but even that requires some thoughts, ur just not aware of them. Quote (I_Guy) But what motivates their desires? Are they in control of those motivations?
The feeling of regret if the person doesn't help the lady cross the street, and the feeling of accomplishment if the person does help the lady. And to the food scenario, when an animal eats food the brain releases a chemical where you feel satisfied and happy. Ur motivated cause you want your brain to release the hormones that make you feel good.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| I_Guy |
Date: Thursday, 07/Jan/10, 11:45 PM | Message # 108 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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You are turning your argument into something else. Is this not about freewill creating personal responsibility justifying how people are responsible for their own happiness? Now you are talking about desires. Do I need to go over creative desires and visceral desires and where they come from? And how they are irrelevant to any point you can make about personal responsibility? If you start talking about desires you are going to end up presupposing a lot, assuming a lot, or end up flat out not explaining anything.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 08/Jan/10, 1:21 AM | Message # 109 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (J-Breakz) Free will is the ability to consciously compare the consequences of choices and choose from the knowledge of what the results are of our choices. Responsibility is the accepting of the consequences of our choices. Personal responsibility is important because I am accepting the consequences of the choices I personally make. I know that if I don't work out and I just eat junk food every day I will become unhealthy. Therefore, if I choose to take that path I have to accept the fact that I will become unhealthy. However I have freewill because I can compare the consequences of the choices I make (I can work out and eat good foods and I can be healthy, or I can not work out and eat bad foods but I will be unhealthy) and choose which one I want most.
How are desires not related to what I am saying? I'm saying we compare the possible choices and choose which one we desire most. But you have to accept responsibility for your choices. Meaning, if I become unhealthy because I choose to live that lifestyle I have no one to blame but myself. But I can always go work out and eat good foods to become healthy. If I'm not accepting responsibility and just blaming it on other people then I will probably never have the willpower to start working out and eating good.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| I_Guy |
Date: Friday, 08/Jan/10, 5:58 AM | Message # 110 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (J-Breakz) Meaning, if I become unhealthy because I choose to live that lifestyle I have no one to blame but myself. But I can always go work out and eat good foods to become healthy. If I'm not accepting responsibility and just blaming it on other people then I will probably never have the willpower to start working out and eating good.
There can't be blame in a universe with natural laws that no one can control.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Friday, 08/Jan/10, 12:48 PM | Message # 111 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (I_Guy) There can't be blame in a universe with natural laws that no one can control.
alright I'm gonna speed up this debate, cuz ur ass takes way too long. I'm going to say the desires set up should be enough. If we were not living in cities and ppl relied on hunting animals, the gene pool of the ppl who were not motivated enough to do things would pretty much die out. So really if they can't work in society because they are not motivated enough, then maybe they're not needed in society. Like survival of the fittest almost. Once again don't confuse that with me supporting them being killed or something. It's kind of how the capitalist economy works with businesses, it gets rids of inefficiency and breeds the most efficient. Now I'm sure what your going to say, the venus project fixes all of that. Awesome. Except I've already shown how bartering would arise in your resource economy that would cause your anarcho-communist society to fall apart. You have yet to show me any evidence of resources that you will use to be abundant enough to supply for 7 billion people, you have yet to show me how "global studies" would work and how fast they will be, you have yet to tell me how these resources will be transferred to the people. By the time all this is worked out black markets will arise. It's pretty naive to believe so strongly in a certain utopian society yet leave so many questions unanswered. If you want, I can personally show you how a totalitarian govn't will arise from an anarcho-communist society.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| I_Guy |
Date: Friday, 08/Jan/10, 9:06 PM | Message # 112 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (J-Breakz) the gene pool of the ppl who were not motivated enough to do things would pretty much die out.
There are no genes for motivation. First of all you don't understand what genes are all about, second of all you don't understand the role the environment has on affecting our behavior. You need to study up on that shit before you start making claims about it. Quote (J-Breakz) Except I've already shown how bartering would arise in your resource economy that would cause your anarcho-communist society to fall apart.
Not if everything is equally accessible. Quote (J-Breakz) You have yet to show me any evidence of resources that you will use to be abundant enough to supply for 7 billion people,
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You think we can't provide resources to all the worlds people yet we can dump BILLIONS OF TONS of trash away in landfills. Guess what, in an RBE society all of that garbage would be recycled and wouldn't be thrown away in the first place because the products wouldn't be made to wear out or become obsolete. And be specific, what kind of resources?????????????????? Quote (J-Breakz) you have yet to show me how "global studies" would work and how fast they will be, you have yet to tell me how these resources will be transferred to the people.
They would work the same way they estimate the population of the earth, or the amount of water there is on the earth. Or the amount of natural gas there is. Or how many species there are in the ocean, or on land. Same way they estimate the life expectancy of the earth. The same way they estimate the remaining resources we have now. Once again be more specific. IT SIMPLE. Send scientists of all fields to study different facets of the earth and then bring them back and have them tell you what they found. What the fuck do you want to know? Quote (J-Breakz) By the time all this is worked out black markets will arise.
Any item that surfaces on the black market can be quickly mass produced to eliminate its scarcity, therefore eliminating whatever item from becoming a black market item. Additionally, not much can be produced unless other production coordinators agree to producing it. That way nothing irrational is produced. If it became that big of a deal, a proposed product would be put to vote to all people. But that would be a final measure, beings a computer would inform how irrational a certain item would be. That would close the question quickly. Give me an example of something that would fall into the black market and I'll explain. Quote (J-Breakz) By the time all this is worked out black markets will arise. It's pretty naive to believe so strongly in a certain utopian society
It's not a utopia because things will constantly change. There is no stopping change no matter what. Things change for better or worse. How can a utopia change for better or worse????????
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 1:51 PM | Message # 113 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (I_Guy) here are no genes for motivation. First of all you don't understand what genes are all about, second of all you don't understand the role the environment has on affecting our behavior. You need to study up on that shit before you start making claims about it.
Here's something, how can my cousin be in University of Michigan right now with straight A's when she grew up in an area where there is 40% unemployment and she had no good rolemodels growing up? Quote (I_Guy) Not if everything is equally accessible.
And I'm saying not everything can be accessible in time for bartering to arise. Quote (I_Guy)
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You think we can't provide resources to all the worlds people yet we can dump BILLIONS OF TONS of trash away in landfills. Guess what, in an RBE society all of that garbage would be recycled and wouldn't be thrown away in the first place because the products wouldn't be made to wear out or become obsolete. And be specific, what kind of resources?????????????????? Quote (I_Guy)
They would work the same way they estimate the population of the earth, or the amount of water there is on the earth. Or the amount of natural gas there is. Or how many species there are in the ocean, or on land. Same way they estimate the life expectancy of the earth. The same way they estimate the remaining resources we have now. Once again be more specific. IT SIMPLE. Send scientists of all fields to study different facets of the earth and then bring them back and have them tell you what they found. What the fuck do you want to know?
I guess I'll just go with the census. You do realize it's never accurate? it takes TWO to THREE months to perform one and even after they think they are done there have been numerous people that have died or been born (btw it's "it's simple" not "it simple" sorry just reading that made me giggle, lol). For this society to work the surveys have to be done much much quicker and have to be much more accurate. Quote (I_Guy)
Any item that surfaces on the black market can be quickly mass produced to eliminate its scarcity, therefore eliminating whatever item from becoming a black market item. Additionally, not much can be produced unless other production coordinators agree to producing it. That way nothing irrational is produced. If it became that big of a deal, a proposed product would be put to vote to all people. But that would be a final measure, beings a computer would inform how irrational a certain item would be. That would close the question quickly. Give me an example of something that would fall into the black market and I'll explain.
I'm talking about basic things needed to survive because I'm arguing that you don't have enough info to be sure you can supply everybody with the same amount of stuff like food, shelter, etc. You assume yet you have provided no proof. Quote (I_Guy) It's not a utopia because things will constantly change. There is no stopping change no matter what. Things change for better or worse. How can a utopia change for better or worse????????
It's a utopia because it's a gift economy and it won't work.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 8:26 PM | Message # 114 |
Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (J-Breakz) Here's something, how can my cousin be in University of Michigan right now with straight A's when she grew up in an area where there is 40% unemployment and she had no good rolemodels growing up? things in this world do not work in absolutes. of course there are exceptions and it's a great thing to hear when someone comes from a bad environment and overcomes, but not all people are like that, so why not work to put people in the best possible situation rather than setting them up for failure and applauding them when they don't fail?
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| I_Guy |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 8:28 PM | Message # 115 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (J-Breakz) Here's something, how can my cousin be in University of Michigan right now with straight A's when she grew up in an area where there is 40% unemployment and she had no good rolemodels growing up?
She was exposed to the right things in life and over time her logic worked out a solution to her likely doom. Quote (J-Breakz) And I'm saying not everything can be accessible in time for bartering to arise.
Keep in mind there HAS to be a transition period of several steps. Bartering will arise during the transition, but further and further into the transition it will be easier to eliminate bartering. Quote (J-Breakz) It's you that isn't specific, you never say what resources the society would use. And also you can't recycle everything, why do you think people are so specific with what you can recycle?
They don't recycle everything because there is no money in recycling some things. Quote (J-Breakz) I guess I'll just go with the census. You do realize it's never accurate? it takes TWO to THREE months to perform one and even after they think they are done there have been numerous people that have died or been born (btw it's "it's simple" not "it simple" sorry just reading that made me giggle, lol). For this society to work the surveys have to be done much much quicker and have to be much more accurate.
Right, but resources don't go anywhere like people do. Resources don't travel the earth like people do, and they don't disappear until used. They are much easier to track that way. Most of the surveys will be done with scientific instruments that are planted throughout the world to take readings. Quote (J-Breakz)
I'm talking about basic things needed to survive because I'm arguing that you don't have enough info to be sure you can supply everybody with the same amount of stuff like food, shelter, etc. You assume yet you have provided no proof.
There's not enough info because the studies haven't been done. That is what the Venus Project is asking for. Get the studies done, that is the first step. All other organization will follow from that. You, just like many other people, are attacking the abstracts of the Venus Project. If you really want a thorough overview, find a chance to view the lectures in the Venus Project thread. Keep in mind, the Venus Project isn't only about focusing on a future society. It is also focusing on the detrimental flaws of this current society. You can't possibly deny the flaws that it points out, can you? This current system is unsustainable and irrational, how can you deny that? You attack the Venus Project concerning its abstracts and act as if that completely negates anything it has to say about the problems with this current system. Don't you get it? This current system is fucked, therefore we need to start thinking about a new direction.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 10:28 PM | Message # 116 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (I_Guy) She was exposed to the right things in life and over time her logic worked out a solution to her likely doom.
She was exposed to a minuscule amount of the right things compared to most people throughout her entire life. Yet she's one of the best students in each of her classes and is able to afford her education with the scholarships and the financial aid she received. Quote (I_Guy)
Keep in mind there HAS to be a transition period of several steps. Bartering will arise during the transition, but further and further into the transition it will be easier to eliminate bartering.
How would bartering be eliminated? Quote (I_Guy) They don't recycle everything because there is no money in recycling some things.
alright, let's use our logic. Why do you think there is no money in recycling some things? It's because it's not efficient. Also:
http://www.oregoncitynewsonline.com/sustain....0105400 Because certain things can't be recycled they are reused. That obviously doesn't fix ur problem. Quote (I_Guy) You attack the Venus Project concerning its abstracts and act as if that completely negates anything it has to say about the problems with this current system. Don't you get it? This current system is fucked, therefore we need to start thinking about a new direction.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| J-Breakz |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 10:33 PM | Message # 117 |
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Heads
Posts: 2162
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Quote (J-Breakz) There have been anarcho-communists societies before and they remained poor because they were not able to figure out how to efficiently produce things with the abolition of money.
And that's the thing, you're not looking at it at a new direction. You're looking at it at an old and failed direction.
livin life like some cheesy movie
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| I_Guy |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 11:04 PM | Message # 118 |
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Heads
Posts: 1792
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Quote (J-Breakz) She was exposed to a minuscule amount of the right things compared to most people throughout her entire life. Yet she's one of the best students in each of her classes and is able to afford her education with the scholarships and the financial aid she received.
I'm not going to make judgments about what she was exposed to, because I'm not around this person, but your ass doesn't know enough about the fundamentals of human behavior, and I'm not going to write 25 paragraphs to explain it, so keep your ignorant points concerning human behavior restrained. YOU ARE UNINFORMED on how people develop certain behaviors and character types. You are arguing from ignorance on this. Regardless of what conditioned her to think as she does now, there is no gene for motivation. That is the point, everything you have brought up isn't proof for a motivation gene. All it is, is your confusion. Quote (J-Breakz) How would bartering be eliminated?
As we make things more available and eliminate scarcity. You are going to have to provide an example, because there are too many variables. Quote (J-Breakz) alright, let's use our logic. Why do you think there is no money in recycling some things? It's because it's not efficient.
Efficient how? It's not financially efficient, that's all. The cost to recycle is not worth recycling, because not enough people buy certain kinds of products. Plastic bottles are often recycled because they sell billions of them. So the cost to recycle is worth it, because it's cheaper then producing fresh plastic. However, that is irrelevant in a money-less society. Quote (J-Breakz) Because certain things can't be recycled they are reused. That obviously doesn't fix ur problem.
Once again, another bullshit article that makes no sense to this debate. They are saying some things are not recyclable for arbitrary reasons. From the article in your link, “Just because it’s not curbside recyclable doesn’t mean it’s not recyclable (altogether),” Kahut said. You seriously think we don't have technology that can recycle all common items??? LOL Quote (J-Breakz) There have been anarcho-communists societies before and they remained poor because they were not able to figure out how to efficiently produce things with the abolition of money.
Technology is key. Most societies who have had a hard time is because they lacked grand technology. Without technology many of the inequalities of society can arise due to labor compensation and scarcity. Technology is a tool, and extension of human abilities. We essentially have to enslave technology to the max in order to eliminate human troubles. There is a logical pathway into the economic benefits human slavery. We follow the same logic but we instead enslave technology to the fullest, instead of people. The Venus Project is anarcho-communism + sociocyberneering. Quote (J-Breakz) And that's the thing, you're not looking at it at a new direction. You're looking at it at an old and failed direction.
The Venus Project is old ideas plus new ideas, so no it hasn't failed, because it hasn't been done yet. So you think capitalism isn't a failed direction? That is hilarious.
We all know that each of our end is near; the question is do we accept the end of our living existence, or do we accept our existence as dead men...
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 11:06 PM | Message # 119 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (J-Breakz) She was exposed to a minuscule amount of the right things compared to most people throughout her entire life. Yet she's one of the best students in each of her classes and is able to afford her education with the scholarships and the financial aid she received. you are looking at it as "either everyone in poor neighborhoods are subject to remaining poor because free will doesn't exist or people have free will". it's not like that. read up on compatibilism and read my last comment. Quote (J-Breakz) alright, let's use our logic. Why do you think there is no money in recycling some things? It's because it's not efficient. no, it's because companies can make more money off of it when it's disposable. Quote (J-Breakz) There have been anarcho-communists societies before and they remained poor because they were not able to figure out how to efficiently produce things with the abolition of money. PROOF????? what anarcho-communist societies have there been, and what libertarian socialist (anarcho-communist, anarcho-socialist, anarcho-syndicalist, anarcho-primitivist, etc.) society has failed because of its economy??? don't even try using the Spanish Revolution of 1936-39 either. that shit was crushed by force. Quote (J-Breakz) And that's the thing, you're not looking at it at a new direction. You're looking at it at an old and failed direction. ????
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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| eboyd |
Date: Saturday, 09/Jan/10, 11:10 PM | Message # 120 |
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Heads
Posts: 13145
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Quote (I_Guy) Technology is key. The Venus Project is anarcho-communism + sociocyberneering.
Quote (I_Guy) The Venus Project is old ideas plus new ideas, so no it hasn't failed, because it hasn't been done yet. anarcho-communism isn't a failed idea either though.
my new theme song
erikboyd60@hotmail.com
"True poetry can communicate before it is understood"
-T.S. Eliot
battle record:
7-0-0
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