To you that may be true. To me, I believe since rap music is part of my culture, I can assess it any way I please, so long as I don't say anything too outlandish, which I believe I haven't, in all honesty.

That is no different from the example I gave. I don't ask loaded questions.

Right, and those are your people, so to speak. I'm not saying you guys get together and go bowling every Friday night, but those are people you have interacted with who claim Pac was looked at in a negative light.

That's your opinion, and I respectfully disagree. Until you can give me some real profound proof that 2Pac was looked at by a majority (even if that majority was a small niche as you like to call it), then I can't take your word as fact. It's your opinion.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is it not? I think Triple Six Mafia is incredibly skilled at their art, and I think they have mastered their sound, and laid a blueprint for many southern artists to come in the future. You personally may not like or agree with that, but that's my opinion. I'm the beholder, and I believe they are skilled at making rap music.

You should try telling that to Pensmoke. Maybe he'll actually listen if you're the one saying it. If you read through my posts in the original thread, this was the point I was trying to convey the entire time.

See below.

Quote (eboyd)
An emcee =/= a rapper. Yes, hip hop CULTURE is comprised of the four elements but 1. Rapping is not one of the 4 elements, emceeing is and 2. Within hip hop CULTURE there is hip hop MUSIC. Rap music =/= hip hop music, it is a part of pop culture. If rap music was the one and only music of hip hop culture, then where oh where would instrumental hip hop (which has no vocals but is most definitely a part of hip hop culture), including turntablism fit oh great omniscient Alcatraz? It's hip hop MUSIC which fits into the larger category of hip hop CULTURE.

I think it's well time you began to practice what you preach.

Again, see below.

Quote (eboyd)
In that case it's my opinion that it's all just music, fuck labels.

Quote (eboyd)
That's in every genre with lyrics. And in hip hop, gangsta, or g-funk, boom bap, trip hop, horrorcore, acid, etc.

......ahem

Quote (eboyd)
In that case it's my opinion that it's all just music, fuck labels.

That's a false statement.

That's your opinion, eboyd. I personally believe that there are no sub-genres in rap music. If record companies want to contruct labels to market their artists more easily to the masses, then that is OK. But as a hip hop purist, I refuse to acknowledge hybrids and sub-genres in hip hop. It is all one in the same. That's my opinion.

Black on Both Sides is not any more of a "conscious" rap album than Eazy Duz It. I don't care what the predetermined definition is, read the actual definition of the word. If you want to throw a label on BOBS then that's OK. That's your opinion. But remember, KRS-One even said it himself, the rappers that most fans consider "Gangster" were actually the first quote unquote Conscious rappers in the game. Again, no offense to you, but KRS-One's word overshadows yours quite effortlessly.

The only point I've been trying to make in both threads is that all rap music should be considered rap music. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. No artist is above another or deserves a certain merit just because of their lyrical content and what they represent as far as their message goes. I'm the one being non-judgemental. That's my role. You and Pensmoke, on the other hand...

Hey, it's no secret that since I've joined the forum and became an active poster, the traffic has gone up.

The more intelligent posters you have, the more Watchers will be inclined to chime in.

i appreciate you wanting to make this site better and increase membership, but don't get all happy with yourself like you've actually done something.

I lol'ed so hard when I read his comment lol

btw, ALCATRAZ, you made a comment yesterday that got lost in the monumental, ridiculous thread split where you said that you don't accept subgenres in hip hop because they were created after the genre's commercialization. what is ironic about this, and the basis of me proclaiming a distinction, is that this is exactly how the term rap was created. no one referred to emcees as rappers until it was commercialized. yes, the term "rap" was used (i'm gonna go rap to this girl) and was eventually used as slang to refer to emceeing, but the original hip hoppers referred to emcees only as emcee, not as rappers. the first known use of the term "rapper" was, we should all know, "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugarhill Gang. by coincidence this turned out to be the first commercially successful song derived from the hip hop culture, and by no coincidence it was also the beginning of rap music being ripped away from hip hop culture. they didn't emphasize the DJing aspect (they may not have even used a DJ) of hip hop, the main rapper in the group was actually reciting lines that were written by Grandmaster Caz, not himself, etc.
as for commercialization leading to subgenres in hip hop, while it happened after hip hop had been commercialized, it was actually the underground movements that spawned the subgenres. turntablism came out of the Grandmaster Flash and Grandwizard Theodore camp, electro-funk came out of the Afrika Bambaataa camp (and, actually, i think it can be argued that this subgenre predated hip hop's commercialization), abstract hip hop came initially from Rammellzee, rock-hop from Run DMC as well as boom bap, gangsta rap, arguably from KRS-One, but probably more accurately from Schooly D, acid rap from Esham, horrorcore from Insane Poetry, etc. now let's be fair, these subgenres should rightfully be attributed to more than just these individuals, but that is besides the point. notice how most of the names mentioned are people that hardly saw any commercial success. it had nothing to do with commercialization. these subgenres came about because the streets had something to say and wanted a change. even crunk (think Pastor Troy) and screwed and chopped (think DJ Screw, Michael 5000 Watts, K-Rino, Z-Ro, Trae, The SUC, etc.) came from underground movements. they just got mainstreamed, much like a lot of forms of hip hop, and several other genres of music, have in the past. horrorcore got commercialized by Eminem and, actually, Three 6 Mafia, abstract hip hop by A Tribe Called Quest, gangsta rap by NWA and Ice T, etc.

In pac's own words @ 2:25

i don't think 2pac's album were really gangsta rap, i think gangsta rap is definitely a sub-genre in hip hop though.

el matador is this the freestyle diss you were talking about? chino makes a referrence to the Hit Em Up song too

I can't believe you are a quote unquote revolutionary who has damn near six thousand posts on a hip hop message board. Laugh about that.

KRS-One is more relevant today, there's no way he's more relevant if anything the guy is going loony these days.

Rakim did a song with the dude that made Chocolate Rain. Now THAT'S funny.

Quote (Pensmoke)
I will say that I can appreciate more of his stuff now more than I did back in the day because there was just way more artists back then that had my attention instead of Pac

i also remember a friend saying that back in the day he never listened to 2pac or biggie because they were too mainstream, but he listens to them now because now he feels like he missed out. but even he thought the same as pensmoke back in the day and he's a 2pac fan.

You and eboyd threw every shot you could, and I dodged every bullet with knowledge and true understanding of the genre.

If that had been a Project Pat line, I guarantee you Pensmoke's response would've been totally different. LOL.

Jeru the Damaja also has some, does that make him a gangsta rapper? Matter of fact, his first track about bitches was called "Da Bichez"

so i really don't see how you read the lyrics and came to the conclusion he was praising the west coast and dissing the east. he's saying that Puffy and Suge fucked up hip hop, they got hip hop drunk and stupid and got its mind fucked up.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
Hip Hop is comprised of four elements: The Emcee, the DJ, the Graffiti Writer, and the Break Dancer. Hip hop, contrary to the general consensus on this board, is not some type of "real" rap music. Rap music is rap music. Hip Hop is what you get when all elements form like Voltron. You should know this already.

An emcee =/= a rapper. Yes, hip hop CULTURE is comprised of the four elements but 1. Rapping is not one of the 4 elements, emceeing is and 2. Within hip hop CULTURE there is hip hop MUSIC. Rap music =/= hip hop music, it is a part of pop culture. If rap music was the one and only music of hip hop culture, then where oh where would instrumental hip hop (which has no vocals but is most definitely a part of hip hop culture), including turntablism fit oh great omniscient Alcatraz? It's hip hop MUSIC which fits into the larger category of hip hop CULTURE.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
In my opinion it's not a legitimate label. Sure, record companies and album reviewers and "real" hip hop heads love to put rappers in pre-determined boxes, but most of the time the artists being judged don't even acknowledge the term! Pac has said once over that he is not a Gangsta Rap artist. Sorry, Pensmoke, but I'll take 2Pac's word over yours any day of the week. No offense.

There were plenty of examples in the past of artists who didn't accept the labels attributed to their music, yet we still commonly associate, for example, Herbie Hancock with Jazz even though he wanted to be known as a funk artist. If the symptoms are there, the diagnosis is clear. Opinion has very little to do with this matter.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
If a white supremacist who was living during the life of Martin Luther King Jr. told you that MLK was a racist womanizer, would you believe him, simply because he was 'around' during his lifetime? That's a weak argument.

That's a false analogy. We're discussing an account of the opinions people held of 2pac during his lifetime from people that were around to hear these opinions, not an account of 2pac's character and attitude from a 3rd person source.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
Great. I'm glad you said that. I'd like to make the claim that Rakim was seen as a homosexual during his rap career. Most real hip hop heads that I knew thought Rakim was a flaming homosexual who wore booty shorts and bought the bar out at disco-techs in NYC with his Paid In Full advance money. Everyone I know that was an older head thought Rakim was gay. Of course I don't have any supporting evidence of that, but my friends will tell you that it's true.

When did I ever say "my friends said..."? I did include a few of the "big homies'" opinions, but I've heard this from multiple different people that claimed to be a part of the underground or real hip hop scene prior to 2pac's death, some that I knew, some that I didn't, that all said that the opinion within the hip hop purist community was that Pac was fake.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
Do you see what I'm getting at, eboyd? It's foolish to make these type of arguments, "Most of my friends think 2Pac was fake so yeah that must be what everyone on God's green earth thinks." Sorry, that's the opinion of a select few. Your people and Pensmoke's people. I'm not saying you are lying about your claims, but you and Pensmoke don't speak for an entire generation. So stop.

When did "the hip hop purist community thought 2pac was fake while he was alive" become "the entire world thought 2pac was fake when he was alive"? That would be a bold and unfounded claim that I couldn't possibly back up and would easily be countered simply using record sales (10 million copies of All Eyez On Me sold in a week) or, hell, even my personal opinion at the time (yes, I was a 2pac fan back then and still am. I was also only about 8 years old and I do believe I am older than you). If you still think that it wasn't even consensus in the purist community, you are really overestimating the size of that particular group. You act like that some big huge group of people when in reality it is a small, niche community. It's bigger than "me and my boys and Pensmoke's people" though.

Quote (ALCTRAZ)
In my eyes, rap is rap, is rap is rap is rap. You can be Vanilla Ice, you can be Project Pat, you can be Big Pun, you can be Q-Tip. If you got skills, you got skills. End of story. If you are for the progression of human equality, then fine, egalitarianism it is. If you rap about women shaking their ass and dicks in their ear and shit, then guess what, you are a rapper too! I got no time to listen to people who want to define every single aspect of an artist, "Wait he said something about vegetarianism, now he is an east coast, conscious, lacto-ovo vegetarian rapper!" That's silly, and that's what you guys are basing this entire debate on. You want to throw labels on everything out there when really you should just be enjoying the rap music. "Real Hip Hop" heads are destroying the culture more than any other group I know. And that's as real as it gets.

Being "real" hip hop has little to do with lyrical content. It has to do with being true to yourself and sticking to the tradition of what hip hop is. To be an emcee rather than a rapper you must also meet a certain skill level. You can talk about whatever the fuck you want and still be an emcee as long as you are skilled at what you do. Rakim, Common, Immortal Technique, Mos Def, Talib, etc. are all emcees but so are Bun B, Snoop Dogg, 2pac, Biggie, Bone Thugs, Wu Tang, etc. and I would argue that so are Ludacris, Kid Cudi, Drake, and even Chamillionaire to an extent. It's not like a distinction that is set in stone (you either are or aren't an emcee), but rather there's a spectrum and some are more toward the emcee side than the rapper side making them emcees. Soulja Boy, for example, would be on the far "rapper" end of the spectrum and someone like Rakim would be at the extremes of the "emcee" end. It still has no bearing on how good someone is as an artist either. I can have an opinion that Lil Wayne is the worst to ever touch a mic but someone else has the opposite opinion and neither of us is right or wrong. That is all a matter of opinion.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
Menace, you can let art schools define the way you view Hip Hop, but that's not me, player. I'm from America, and my people built this shit. You are from Romania, I'll just leave it at that. I'll define rap however I please, so long as I'm not disrespecting anyone. I refuse to put a rapper in a box just because he talks about this on one song, or that in another song. That's just not how I get down, I'm simply not that judgemental. Alternative rap and Gangsta rap are terms that were placed on rappers once the music became corporate. There is no one that can tell me otherwise. When the music was made by the people, for the people, no one gave two shits about a sub-genre or hybrid.

In that case it's my opinion that it's all just music, fuck labels. Fuck hip hop, fuck rock, fuck jazz, fuck classical, fuck polka, fuck alternative, fuck pop, it's all just music. And, as a matter of fact, words, after all, are just labels, so fuck words. I'm going to just grunt and moan and use body language to get my point across from now on. Hiodnjforfbhrebnf fiofvb fy diuf fiufbfuj fuif fujdif!

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
You called me shorty before I called you gramps. Don't get all emotional just because I'm throwing it back in your face. Wipe them tears, there's a brighter day.

You've been a disrespectful ass since you entered this thread.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
Hip Hop, in my opinion, is not some mysterious type of rap music credited to rappers who talk about flowers and peace on Earth. Rap is universal in my eyes.

None of us is implying that either. However, it's far more objective than what you make it out to be. Your opinion has little bearing on what hip hop is. And when we speak of hip hop, we need to make the distinction between hip hop CULTURE and hip hop MUSIC. Rap is not a part of hip hop, though it is related. It is a part of pop culture. I'll explain in a moment.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
I'm a big Project Pat fan, love his music. Unlike "real" hip hop heads he is able to convey his message and still make fun raps at the same time. There is a reason Mista Don't Play is one of the highest selling independent albums of all time.

That's your opinion and that is fine. I personally think he's pretty wack, though he's not as bad as a majority of the rappers out there these days, but Pen has a bit of a personal gripe with Project Pat because he's from Memphis and knows from personal experience that him and Three Six are snakes.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
And if you really wanna get technical about it, the only reason Rock & Roll has sub-genres is not because of the subject matter, per say, it's because of the way in which the instruments are used. Punk Rock typically is credited with 3 chords or sometimes even less than that. Metal, for the most part, revolves around technical guitar skills, or are some like to call it, "thrashing". The substance of the lyrics has nothing to do with it. I can find conscious rap songs over Dirty South beats. It's not that difficult.

No, it has to do with lyrical content to an extent and the sound of the music. That's in every genre with lyrics. And in hip hop, gangsta, or g-funk, boom bap, trip hop, horrorcore, acid, etc. all have distinctive sounds and lyrical content, just as punk and metal are distinctly different and there are fusions thereof. It's the same with Jazz: you have swing, bebop, avant garde, free jazz, acid jazz (ATCQ's music actually fits here), fusion, cool jazz, hot jazz, smooth jazz, etc. Many artists have music that fits into multiple genres and even subgenres as well. In fact I'd say most artists can be described with more than one label including 2pac.

Quote (EmSeeD)
is this a red herring argument?

No, it's just a false analogy, like most of the analogies he uses in his arguments.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
because I'm playing your game. If you want to label a rapper as this sub-genre, what happens when he creates music that is defined by another sub-genre? It's a hypocrisy, in its truest form. That's the easiest way of exposing how silly it is to put social constraints on rappers like that. Leave that sub-genre, hybrid bullshit to the Rock & Roll heads, Rap is not Rock.

Hip hop music is music. All music genres have subgenres. Hip hop music is no exception to this rule. It has well established subgenres that everyone who is educated on hip hop knows about and they are based on several criteria, one of which is lyrical content.

As for artists creating music that fits another subgenre, again, you have this false assumption that an artist is a certain type of artist and is stuck in a specific subgenre or even a specific genre. This is bullshit. Miles Davis dabbled in pretty much every single subgenre of Jazz and even some rock and hip hop music (check his last album before he died that he worked with Easy Mo Bee to make). Same can be said for hip hop artists. Guru has dabbled in Jazz music, Q-Tip in multiple genres, same with Mos Def and Common, etc. Also, artists like Del Tha Funkee Homosapien, for example, go from subgenre to subgenre (ie: alternative hip hop to acid rap) all the time with no problem. We only label an artist with a specific subgenre when a majority or large amount of their work is in a specific genre or subgenre.

Quote (TheWatcher)
Tupac never actually stated that he was the 'Greatest Rapper Alive' or the Greatest of All Time like LL Cool J and Lil Wayne

And........ ?

Quote (TheWatcher)
I don't think you're judging Tupac fairly though by calling him a mere 'Gangsta rapper' as if that was what he was all about though.

Here's this assumption again. None of us are saying anything of the sort. What we're saying is that enough of 2pac's tracks are from the gangsta rap genre to call him a gangsta rap artist, among other things.

Quote (TheWatcher)
I'm sorry man but comparing Lil Wayne to Tupac is ridiculous and saying that "everyone" hated Pac is far from the truth.

huh am I in the fucking twilight zone or something where we can reiterate the same point 3,000 times and still no one gets it?

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
To me, there is no difference between Black on Both Sides and Eazy Duz It. They both represent hip hop. Yin and Yang, so to speak.

In just the same sense, both "Bitches Brew" and "Naked Lunch" are jazz albums, but listen to them. They are completely different. "Bitches Brew" is rock/jazz fusion whereas "Naked Lunch" is free jazz. Yes, BOBS and Eazy Duz It are both hip hop, but BOBS, as an overall album, is conscious rap (though some tracks are more boom bap and a few are even soul, r&b, jazz, rock, etc.), while Eazy Duz It (I'm assuming as I've never listened to it) is a gangsta rap album.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
What I got was a bunch of pretentious herbs who judge everything as if they created the genre themselves.

Hey pot, the kettle called. Said he wants you to acknowledge that you're black too.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
If people want this forum to thrive, we need to build a foundation of true knowledge and understanding when discussing hip hop. We ain't there yet, but I believe once everyone gets on the same page, the forum will flourish. People are already starting to take notice to this board, let's not scare them away with preconceived notions of what real hip hop is and is not.

Oh Great ALCATRAZ, please bestow upon us your infinite wisdom!

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
You and eboyd threw every shot you could, and I dodged every bullet with knowledge and true understanding of the genre.

We are not worthy to be in your presence!

Quote (TheWatcher)
"To my elite peeps with the murderous mystiques
I hit the streets with beats and they critique for weeks
They be like "How that kid Ra reach the peak?"
Pull out the heat and use my technique to speak" - Rakim (Rakim glorifying murders and talking about heat)

Lol obviously you need to work on your reading comprehension and listening skills.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
When you don't cast judgement you are able to hold your head high. I pride myself on that, so sue me.

rofl

Mr. Angel/Messiah Alcatraz, claiming you don't cast judgment is like the Pope claiming he's an atheist.

Quote (EmSeeD)
i'm so confused how did this shit go from the age of rappers and when they should stop rapping to "was 2pac a gangsta rapper?"

I think it had something to do with the preserved 2pac cock sitting in Alcatraz's basement that he likes to consistently take out of the preservative alcohol and suck on.

Quote (EmSeeD)
as for there being different genre's in hip hop there are, this is the first time i've heard anyone say there are no sub genre's in hip hop, the genre is defined by its sound and style. anyone with ears can hear the difference in sound and style.

Thank you. Some people have their heads shoved so far up their asses that they need to consult a proctologist to get a haircut.

Quote (ALCATRAZ)
What you waiting for man post that shit ASAP. Is it the freestyle recording or is this a rarity? Please post it soon, I'll rep no doubt.

He's probably talking about the freestyle diss off the Wake Up Show (SIIIiIIICK fucking diss btw!!!!!!!).

i tried listening to ready to die but ended up removing it from my ipod and itunes library.

everyone, apparently dookie is addicted to crack cocaine. jk but seriously lay off the rock homie

:P, crack cocaine, as far as i know its not even known as that in good ol ossieland.

dude, i try not to push shit but i highly recommend you give this another spin.